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Thursday, July 19, 2007


Exiling Barajas to NY would be like Christmas in July.

I'd take Myers for Barajas - this bullpen needs a frisbee-thrower!

Rod Barajas to the Yankees, I couldn't imagine a better match! Let's make this happen.

More help's on the way as well:
"Righthander Geoff Geary is 1-1 with a 2.53 ERA in six appearances for triple-A Ottawa. In his last three appearances, he has allowed three hits, no runs and no walks, and has struck out six in five innings."

I have a quick question if anyone has any details about the scholarship included in the contract. I actually like that as a bonus to lower picks out of high school who may never make it to the bigs. It's a minimal cost to the teams and gives the guys something to fall back on if they get injured, etc. But what is the point with a guy who's getting $1 million+ bonus and should only be two semesters away from graduating anyway?

I don't know if I want to play the Geary game again. Wouldn't call a AAA retread "help" per se.

the scholarship could be to pay for the college that he has already attended. Mr. Savery could very well be in six figure debt right now.

You wouldnt want to give Geary - who was our workhorse in the pen last year, another shot at the Show? you'd prefer Mesa perhaps? or Condrey?

Geary had performed in the show before, and he lst something, maybe it was physical, maybe it was mental. if he worked it out in ottawa, i absolutely want to see him over 2 or three of the retreads we currently have.


I know Rice is expensive but I figure it's a safe assumption he got a full ride to play baseball there.

Steve Jeltz: It's only another $30,000 for them to cough up his last year's tuition.
The parents probably insisted on it as a deal sweetener. In the grand scheme of things, you're not going to blow the deal with your $1.3 million dollar 1st pick over $30G's.

Crazy Jon:

You're probably right, I was just curious about it. I certainly wouldn't blow a contract negotiation over one year's worth of tuition money.

But a guy with 1st round money needs a scholarship about as much as Jessica Simpson needs a boob job.

I'd rather have Geary on the roster than Condrey, FWIW, and would also rather have Hernandez than Condrey since Hernandez has the options and is younger. They might as well see what have in the guy, right? Condrey just seems like a waste to me.

Regardless, we're talking about three ineffective relievers, so it's probably no big deal.

What's the deal with 15-day DL Werth and 15-day DL Rosario? Does anyone come off the DL 15 days later anymore? Here are two more injuries where the details aren't clear. I don't think Werth was ever healthy at any point this season. But who cares; the offense is getting by just fine without him. I wouldn't be surprised if they released him.

College baseball does not have full ride scholarships, they are partials. The best
players may get a 30% scholarship. Rice
costs about 30,000 a year, so that is still
21,000 a year out of your pocket.

Exactly. I just don't think "help is on its way" when I hear the name "Geary". I'd be happy to send Mesa/Condrey out of town.

Steve Jeltz: I agree that he doesn't need the scholarship money with that bonus, but why not insist on it? That's $30,000 that he can use to buy one of the tires on Lieber's truck.

I can only assume that Werth is being held on the 15 day as a favor to PG. The guy was brought on board solely due to favoritism from Gillick.

I'm sure that its a personal tradgedy that he never recovered from his wrist injury, but sorry, we should put the best team on the fild, and that doesnt include werth.

no matter how "ugly" coste's swing is.

Don't let DavThom hear you bad mouth Chris Coste.

I don't know if he was signed for "favoritism". He was signed b/c PG knew him and I guess thought he was a sleeper, like Dobbs. I'd rather have seen someone else signed, but favoritism makes it sound like something nefarious, when it wasn't.

i'm not badmouthing coste, i'm being completely sarcastic.

the guys hits 300+, and people call his sing "ugly". i don' care if he puts the bat between his a$$ cheeks when he swings, if he can rake, and he can, he belongs on the team.

and this is without mentioning his pitcher handling abilities.

The Barajas to the YANKS for Myers or Vizcaino might look better on paper than reality.

Granted I would love to see him fly out of Philly but if we get Myers I would assume Zagurski goes down as we would have 3 lefties or is Romero released or sent down (does he have any options?).

I personally would like to see Zags stick around as he has had 1-2 bad games but has done an admirable job and can get better.

Although I do not know much about Vizcaino I am not sure how much of an upgrade he is over Geary if he has corrected what was wrong.

Vizcaino's numbers are terrible at Yankee Stadium and terrific on the road which paints a bad future picture in Philly.

Could we get more with a trade of Ruiz for a starter or get prospects instead for Barajas versus a short-term bullpen rental?

This team needs as many capable bullpen arms as possible given the meager starting pitching. Two moves I make right now:

1. Bring up Geary and release/send Condrey back to T-AAA. Condrey bring nothing to this club right now and at least Geary might make a contribution down the stretch.

2. Trade Barajas for Vizcaino. Mesa hasn't been horrible since he got here but is only on this roster because the Phils don't have any better solutions. Vizcaino isn't great but he is a clear upgrade over Joe Table. Can I pitch in for Barajas' bus ticket to the Port Authority?

This one goes out to SirAlden:

-Good thing the Phils didn't seem Dotel last offseason. He wouldn't have helped this club or been a useful chip to trade.

From MLB Trade Rumors: "The Phillies are falling all over themselves to get a starter, but the main options appear to be Joe Kennedy, Kyle Lohse, and Steve Trachsel. Awww yeah, World Series here we come. For good starters or relievers, teams want Shane Victorino. The Phils need him to take over center field next year."

I don't want to get rid of Vic even if we do resign Rowland.

Can we throw in our team Docs and swap with the Yanks in the Barajas deal? At least we'll know how severe the injuries are then. Plus, after Pavano, Garcia will look like a medical miracle to them.

When the hell is Myers coming back, BTW?

If Arroyo is available how about Ruiz & Segovia for him?

Phils probably would not go for Arroyo's contract but it is probably not bad considering what the cost of starting pitching will be in the next few years.

How 'bout Barajas for Farnsworth. I think Farnsworth just dropped on the depth chart and I don't think the org likes him too much. He has a big contract but he is a power arm that is nasty when he is on. It is by no means an even swap of talent, but both players are disliked by their teams and Farns' contract would be off their books.

The Yanks current backup is batting .125 in 53 at bats. Rod would be an upgrade (never thought I'd say that)

The only problem with Geary is how you use him. Despite what posters like kdon say, Geary is not a stud back of the bullpen guy worthy of being your setup man. Even in his career year last season, his numbers against lefties were poor. I'd use him in middle relief and as a spot guy against righties only in later innings. He just doesn't have the stuff to be your setup guy.

In order I would take Vizcaino, Farnsworth (assuming his salary is not crazy) and Myers. Both Vizcaino and Myers have pitched well lately for the Yankees. Thus I can't see them giving up a key bullpen member for a backup catcher (they despise; they would give him away for nothing).

Not having an effective Geary this year has cost the Phils nearly as much as not having Gordon. I know he hasn't been much help this season, but I agree with Jason: he almost has to be more useful than someone like Condrey or Mesa. I'd like to see him back up with the big club.

If this Barajas rumor makes so much sense, why hasn't either team actually proposed it? Could it be that the Yankees realize Barajas is virtually worthless? The idea of trading nothing for something (Farnsworth? Arroyo? How?!?) is very appealing but not all that likely to happen. Beerleaguer theme song of the week: "Wouldn't It Be Nice".

we could stay on Beach Boys Pet Sounds and play "God Only Knows" for Chase Utley

Farnsworth is signed through 08 at %5.5M per. He's been in the majors for 9 years and had 3 great years, 3 mediocre years and 3 horrendous years. I don't like the money or the odds.

Mike Myers is exactly what he is: The quintessential LOOGY. He won't give you more than 40 IP a year and you don't ever want him facing a righty, but he will get the other team's lefty slugger out. His contract is worth $1.25M this year and he's a free agent at season's end.

Luis Vizcaino is signed for this year only at $3M and will be a free agent. He's been quite good in 4 of the past 5 years, but not so hot this year due to a shabby K/BB ratio. He's the guy I'd want out of this bunch.

Completely agree, Clout. Get Vizcaino, if possible.

Did they sign Workman?

MG:I'll chip in for the bus ticket for Barajas or if needed drive him personally to the Bronx.
Farnsworth is despised in New York but Joe Torre is the biggest problem in terms of killing his relievers. Just ask Tom Gordon.
I'm hoping that Coste gets the start w/ Cole tonight. Judging from Cole's comments last week-it's obvious he prefers him behind the plate. If Barajas is catching-my guess is that Gillick forced Charlie's hand.

I would be tempted to go with Farnsworth from this group. If they're going to be strapped with a bad contract, might as well be tied to a non-rental reliever. Would the Yanks pay some of it?

On Clout's earlier point on how Cholly would use Geary, my gut tells me he would be re-insterted into pressure spots immediately.

Haven't signed Workman or Sampson yet. Forget which one, but one is heavily leaning towards college, the other is "just" looking for more money and can be persuaded. Gotta get at least one of them.

I really hate when people start just slinging names and potential trades...ok people to get something you need to give up something in return. Although Arroyo might be having a below average year we all know that he is a capable 3-4 starter and most likely reasonably priced at under $6million per year.

THerefore JB - giving up a 28 year old Rookie catcher and a guy that couldnt make it in AAA most likely will not get that deal done.

To very honest I believe most of us true phillies fans know that while Gillick has done an absolutely terrible job as GM with his stupid FA moves, trades & pickups we cannot go crazy on him if he is unable to garnish another mid level pitcher before the end of this season. We all know that the team has NO real position/pitching prospects above A (with the exception of Carrasco & Costanzo). Therefore, it will be very difficult to make a trade for anything more than mariginal help and/or rental players.

WHile I am truely displeased with how this team has done this year, they are what they are...a .500 team. I've been saying it since April. They put themselves in that huge hole to start out the season and they spent the entire first half of the season trying to dig themselves out of it. I really can't see them ever getting to 86 wins this season. With the lack of pitching throughout the organization this season is beginning to look exactly as Gillick predicted last year, one in which he did not expect to contend.

OUr common theme motto is we are about three years away from being three years away from contending. While so frustrating I would say that the only way this team's pitching can get better is to stay the course with what we got for now, eventually adding Carrasco when Eaton/Moyer eventually get hurt.

This offseason will be make or break for Gillick. We will be losing Moyer, Garcia, Lieber from the original starting 5. Leaving only Hamels, Eaton and maybe Myers to be next years starters with Kendrick, Carrasco in the mix. He will need to go out and get at least one top of the rotation starter and a lights out closer. Whether this moronic ownership will allow him to go out and get those players is another thing.

From Jason Stark's article today

"After weeks of hunting for bullpen help, the Phillies have suddenly lurched into a fix-the-rotation frenzy. "They're almost at the point," says an executive of one club that has talked with them, "to where they'd just settle for a pitcher -- any pitcher. They want pitching so bad, they'll settle for anything they can get." But the Phillies' prospect pool is so thin, who can they get? They don't appear to match up with the White Sox or Giants. They have zero interest in Odalis Perez or Scott Elarton. So it looks as if their rotation shopping list consists mostly of Joe Kennedy and Kyle Lohse, with Steve Trachsel as a lukewarm fallback option."

would anyone honestly want to give up even a marginal prospect for Joe Kennedy, Kyle Lohse or Steve Trachsel???? I would suggest going with guys from rookie ball then those re-tred turds.

On another note, I been away from the computer the past few days and just catching up on some articles...I'm sure the Hayes article on Gordon's injury has been mentioned in here previously....but I'm once again sick to my stomach reading about how we've been lied to about players injuries...I think even the most novice fans knew that Gordon & Garcia were shot when they acquired them.

Oh yeah by the way Myers was diagnosed as day to day about two months ago. And they got pissed off at Eskin when he had a Dr. call into his show after the indicident and report that it could be a significant injury to Myers. WHo is lying to whom?

I'd be happy if the Phils could flip Barajas for Vizcaino... and then figure out some way to deal for either Lohse or Kennedy without giving up a real prospect or Bourn or Victorino. Not sure if that second part is possible, but I guess you never know.

Lohse is a free agent after this season and just 28 years old. I'm not saying the guy is great, but he's had his flashes... and he's not terrible with walks.

Kennedy is also a free agent after this season and is also 28 years old. He's had bigger walk issues... but, again, it's not like we can go out and get some superstar pitcher here.

The Phils only chance is to take a chance. Take a chance on someone who won't cost us much in a trade and someone we won't be paying next year.

Pipe dream? Perhaps. But we are paying a GM for something... so let's see something...

On Lohse and Kennedy...

Even if they guys are bad are they really going to be worse than what we've got? There's a chance they could be better... but they can't be worse. It's pretty much impossible.

Bill Conlin just made a great point on DNL on why Michael Bourne should start tonight
Although Burrell is hot-they need the speed
1)Chris Young has one of the slowest delivery's to the plate in baseball.
2)San Diego's catching is atrocious at throwing basestealers out.
3)Huge outfield in Petco field to cover.

The Padres don't score many runs-I'll take the Defense in left over Burrell ocasional offense.

Ugh. The only starting pitcher on that list that even potentially interests me is Joe Kennedy. He is healthy and would be a clear upgrade over Durbin. Lohse isn't a horrible pitcher but I have a feeling he would get lite up at CBP. Flyball pitchers who give are prone to giving up HRs don't work out to well in CBP. Traschel - No thanks.

The worst thing about all of the starting pitchers mentioned by start is that not a single one is under contract for next year. Trading Victorino for a FA starting pitcher just creates two holes instead of one.

The only starting pitcher

I guess what I'm saying, is I'd be much happier with this pitching staff (not WS excited... but happier):


Geary or Zagurski (or both, if we trade Barajas and elect to go with a bigger staff until Sept. call ups... however, carrying just two catchers is not ideal)

Cj: I posted last week that Lohse might not be as bad as he looks. He was pretty good when he first came up with the Twins; at worst, I think he's a Cory Lidle type. With this offense, that's not a bad option. I doubt he'll be worse than he looks now, and he might well be better.

Uh, Dude, don't mean to burst your bubble, but we're already "contending."

Phillies are probably somewhere between contending and pretending. The offense and the standings show they can contend, but the pitching is pretending at best. The next few weeks will show what they really are doing.

P O'Neil: Hence the need to take a chance on upgrading the pitching.

The thing is, the Phillies don't need just 1 starter. They need 3. This season is a lost cause & I don't feel too good about next year's chances either, since we're already stuck with Eaton & Moyer for 2 of the slots in our starting rotation.

BAP: I certainly appreciate your strong opinions on the matter, but giving up on a season in which we have the best offense in baseball before we even reach the trade deadline is just not something I'm willing to do.

We gave up last year and probably missed out on the playoffs because of it.

CJ: I agree 100% with your post.

CJ: So do I. I suspect team management does, too. I suspect the folks on this board who are ready to throw in the towel are young 'uns who think rebuilding always pays off. Some teams have been "rebuilding" for 10 or 15 years without getting as close to the playoffs as the Phillies have been for the past three seasons. It would be particularly foolish for a team that's about .500 to do so, since we'll only be drafting about the middle of the pack anyway. Rebuilding makes sense when you're among the six worst teams in baseball, because you get players who have a much higher chance of being stars. Of course, it doesn't work if you draft players who announce ahead of time they won't sign with you.

Dammit clout... that's no fun at all.

The #1 reason why rebuilding makes no sense is that the Phils have almost NOTHING coming up from the minors. We have a derth of top prospects.

The nucleus we have right now (Hamles, Rollins, Utley, Howard, Victorino, Ruiz, maybe Bourn) is the only one we'll be able to win with for at least the next five years. That means taking the shots where we can.

However, taking our shot does NOT mean dealing away any of those people or those few top prospects we have.

There's a balance there. And a good GM can find that balance. (I'm NOT calling Gillick a good GM, by the way.)

It's not that I'm giving up on the season per se. I'm just stating a fact. There's nothing we can plausibly do between now & July 31 that is going to substantially bolster our chances to catch the Mets or Braves this year. Remember, we not only have horrendous pitching but we also start out with a 5-game deficit.

Greinke is an interesting case. Drafted #6 overall out of high school in 2002, he was in the majors with KC at 20 in 2004. He had a good rookie season, a much worse sophomore effort and left the team in spring training in 2006, sitting out almost the entire year with what was diagnosed as a "performance anxiety" issue. He was back this year, bombed in the rotation but has been very good in middle relief the past two months (Phillie fans might remember him striking out 5 of 6 batters in a loss to the Royals last month). It sounds like KC has lost patience with him. Of course, the Phillies are hardly the best team to rehabilitate a head case, which, according to the Daily News story today (link at left) is what they're trying to do with Durbin.

Oops, the link is actually at right. Long day. BAP, all it took to make the Phils a contender last year was a sudden turnaround by Lieber and a string of good starts by him. I'm not ready to give up.

BAP: "There's nothing we can plausibly do between now & July 31 that is going to substantially bolster our chances to catch the Mets or Braves this year."

Again, you are welcome to your opinion, but you do not own a crystal ball. You do not own a time machine. You are guessing.

How do you know that Lohse would not improve this rotation? How do you know that Myers won't come back healthy and become a lock-down closer? How do you know that Gordon won't be an immediate bullpen upgrade? How do you know that bringing in Vizcaino won't help?

Did you predict that Moyer's addition last year would provide as much of a boost as it did?

What's the incentive to give up on the season? I guess I'd like to hear you answer that question. Why give up?

The Stark post sounds like typical Phillies groveling. Even when they're trading a player of value - someone the other team desperately needs - they're the subservients. "Please! We'll take anything! Wilfredo Laureano? Thank you, master!"


Here's my point:

If you're right... then trying and failing means we're no better or worse off than we are today.

If you're wrong... then we miss out on a chance to make the playoffs for the first time in more than a decade because we gave up.

There is no good reason to give up. Only bad ones.

does anyone really care about ESPN's WHo's THe Most Now or its ESPY's? I mean what the hell does this crap mean? Does it just seem like every host is angling to get his own talk/sitcom show.

CJ - I am with BAP. I will give you the most likely reason why the Phils won't make the playoffs - the number "5" as in the 5 teams that are currently ahead of the Phils in the WC standings.

While I don't think Colorado or the Braves are substantially better than the Phils, the Cubs, Dodgers, and Diamondbacks are all superior teams to the Phils because of their pitching. I find it highly unlikely the Phils are going to be able to beat out 3 teams with superior pitching for the WC. It just ain't happening.

MG: I guess I'm not interested in predictions. That's not the point.

We may very well not make the playoffs no matter what we do. But tell me why we shouldn't try?

If we can improve our bullpen and staff for the price of Rod Barajas and a couple of middle prospects... why not do it?

I'd love Greinke, but i hear they still want a lot for him.

I'm basically with B.A.P on this one, for this year. They can still do it, but they don't need 1 pitcher, they need like 3. Especially with Gordon "back", but a shell of himself, and I can't imagine Myers is in any better shape. I'm almost afraid he comes back, gets overused and is out next year. I want them to go for it, but i'm not sure what they really can get.

They don't need to "rebuild", they need to "build" properly.

ESPN-can hardly watch it anymore.


I THINK people are saying what u just said. If we can improve by trading marginal crap, of course do it, but Mike Myers and Geary probably aren't going to put the Phils over the top. We can hope, of course.

CJ - Simple. Because this isn't the Special Olympics and the Phils don't get any points for "being valiant in their effort." Tried of them grasping at straws and telling the fans, "Well we tried but we just came up short." That is why Ed Wade was supposedly fired.

Gillick, counter to what SirAlden says, has behaved like Ed Wade. Gillick was supposedly brought in to evaluate this team and see if it was a legit playoff contender. Supposedly, it wasn't at last year's trading deadline and it wouldn't be until 2008.

Counter to what Gillick said at the trading deadline, Gillick's moves this offseason were geared to making the playoffs in 2007. Unfortunately, Garcia was a total dude and the pitching staff was a failure due to injuries/poor acquisitions.

Now, you want Gillick to trade away Victorino or another one of the few legit prospects the Phils have to have a marginal shot at the playoffs. When the Phils don't make the playoffs, this team will be back to square one again and even worse off for 2008.

When is anyone in the Phils' organization going to focus on anything beyond the immeidate present? Like watching the same crappy horror movie franchise year and year.

CJ: "Giving up" is the wrong term. If the doctor tells you that you have an incurable disease, is that giving up or is it just stating a fact? My diagnosis is that the Phillies have a disease that cannot be cured by way of mid-season trade. That's not to say I wouldn't at least try to make trades that can improve the team. But I wouldn't do it at the expense of the team's future because, frankly, I can't see how any such move would be enough, given the team's colossal pitching problems, the lack of pitching talent that is available, the current 5-game deficit, and the large number of teams ahead of them.

No, I can't foresee the future and, yes, it is metaphysically possible that the Phillies could suddenly get hot & get back in the playoff race. But the odds of it happening are too slim to justify trading away decent prospects. If the situation changes, as it did last year, I would reconsider but, as of now, I can't see much good that would come from giving up prospects to get a marginal pitcher like Kyle Lohse.

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