Tigers pound Phillies 12-8; left-handers duel tonight

As predicted, last night's game featured plenty of offense, including five Phillies home runs, but it wasn't enough as the Tigers rolled 12-8. A poor frame from Jon Lieber, mistakes in the field and shaky relief also led to their undoing.

Give credit to the Tigers; they can mash with the best of them. I watched half the game including the fifth inning where Lieber gave it up. Manager Charlie Manuel had Ryan Madson warming, but sat him when the score became 7-2, going with Francisco Rosario, followed by Jose Mesa, representing the two weakest pitchers on the team.

Most managers would have done the same, handing it over to the B-list pitchers at that point. However, 7-2 in the fifth, at home with hitter conditions is a spot where Madson should be used. Those are the situations he often cruises. The time has come to realize that's where Mad Dog helps them most, not in the eighth inning.

It's a shame because the Phils ended up producing enough offense to win the ballgame. The offense is playoff-ready and belted Tigers' pitching with five deep bombs, including two from Jimmy Rollins. Shane Victorino, Ryan Howard and Greg Dobbs also homered. The only games they're losing lately are the games where the starting pitcher implodes. That's been roughly one in four or five starts. Adam Eaton, Freddy Garcia, Jamie Moyer now Lieber have all thrown duds over the last two weeks.

As for the bullpen, the front office is probably tentative to jettison Rosario since they scouted him for weeks during spring training. What a prize he's turned out to be. No control whatsoever. Phillies love pitchers who throw hard but have no idea where the ball is going, and deny opportunities for strike throwers like Justin Germano, now helping the pitching-rich Padres. If it were up to me, I'd replace Rosario with whatever AAA mercenary is throwing strikes, either John Ennis or Kane Davis when healthy. Bubba Nelson, who's been used as a starter and reliever, pitched a one-run game last night, going eight innings without giving up a walk. He's definitely an option. Besides Rosario, I don't like what I've seen from Mesa, either. He's completely washed up and they'll probably let him overstay his welcome.

Phillies considering four-man rotation: According to the Inquirer, Manuel said the Phils have not decided whether to keep rookie Kyle Kendrick in the rotation or go with a four-man rotation until the all-star break. Kendrick is scheduled to start Tuesday. Todd Zolecki figures they could get away with skipping Kendrick once, but will run into issues during a 10-game stretch between June 26 and July 4, which includes a double-header with the Mets.

C.J. Henry stinks: Lakewood’s Carl (C.J.) Henry, one of the prospects who came over in the Bobby Abreu deal, is 0-for-13 in his last three games with 12 strikeouts, and in his last five, he’s 0-for-21 with 15 strikeouts. He’s hitting .176 on the season with 78 strikeouts in 187 at bats. Hard to believe he was a first round pick of the Yankees two seasons ago.

Tonight's game: Detroit LHP Andrew Miller (2-0, 3.18 ERA) vs. LHP Jamie Moyer (5-5, 4.55 ERA). Moyer is looking to rebound from his worst start of the season. He hasn't faced the Tigers since 2005.

[Live Boxscore]

Comments

[P O'Neil]

Nice post J.

Dobbs is an offensive machine.

[Walter]

Anyone have the scoop on Kyle Drabek? Seems he threw about 10 pitches last night and was taken out of the game. Elbow again?

[clout]

Jason: You're exactly right about Madson. The guy should be pitching middle innings. But because the bullpen sucks, he's saved for the 7th or 8th. The middle innings are turned over to Rosario and Mesa, who shouldn't be on the team. This gets solved if and when Gordon and Myers come back, but if one or the toher DOESN'T come back, and no trade is made for a quality arm, you can kiss the playoffs goodbye.

On Kendrick, I'd keep pitching him. The kid showed some poise and some brains in his first start. He needs to keep working on command of his breaking stuff. Give him 8-10 starts unless we can make a trade. He can't do worse than Garcia's 10 starts.

[clout]

Oh, and thanks too for the C.J. Henry update. I'd been doing updates from time to time, but it should be a regular feature of Beerleaguer. The Phillies billed him as "the blue-chip prospect" in the Abreu deal.

[P O'Neil]

I don't think even the Phils were high enough on Henry to ever call him a "blue chip prospect".

[bay_area_phan]

Maybe Gilick's tongue slipped. He meant to say "bullsh** prospect" but accidentally said "blue chip"

[MuguFriend]

i'll be up in section 205 tonite. ANyone know if any hot b*tches sit up there for me to get my groove on wid?

[Amanda Huginkiss]

I think Hamels is so hot...any chances he drops his new wife for me...i think she was in playboy or something

[Ben Keeler]

I look for Moyer to pitch well tonight and bounce back from that disaster in KC.

[curt]

The bad news is that tonight's leftie is better than the past few who have dominated us. The good news is that he's a rookie still working on control & is probably only good for 5 or 6 innings.

Our 4-9 hitters remain dreadful against lefties. Howard and PtBB carry a .349 BA - TOTAL.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/teams/phi/stats/bycategory?cat=Batting&type=31&year=season_2007&qualified=0&sort=22

[J. Weitzel]

Minor League breaking news: MLB suspended Ottawa RHP Matt Childers 50 games for violating the minor league drug and prevention treatment program, according to Rotoworld. Childers, 28, had a 3.41 ERA for Triple-A Ottawa this season.

In other news, Kyle Drabek was taken out of yesterday's game early with soreness in his pitching elbow. The move was considered precautionary. It was his first start since May 26.

[P O'Neil]

What Phils pitcher DOESN'T have some sort of arm trouble, precautionary or not.

[Billy Mac]

One pleasant surprise from the bullpen has been Yoel Hernandez. I really like the movement he has on his pitches and his ability to locate down in the zone.

Ben, I wish I had your confidence tonight. I think this is a very bad matchup for Moyer. I was actually hoping they were going to skip him. Tigers are loaded with veteran right handed power.

[Billy Mac]

I know the Phils are being really careful with Drabek and he is coming off DL stint, but his removal in the first inning really concerns me. I read the game account in the Asbury Park Press and they said he didn't get a pitch above 84 mph, whereas he was throwing 95 prior.

[RSB]

Wow. This guy Miller looks like a giraffe on stilts.

[joe]

unless mr. miller settles down, and finds the plate, he aint gonna last long.

[RSB]

Oh. man. Burrell. Awful.

He might be better off with that bat on his damn shoulders, after all.

[curt]

Wonder if Jason is still having trouble figuring out whether Vic or PtBB is the more valuable Phillie...

[RSB]

This &^$^%#& team is nothing but one big &^#$^&%#& tease night after (%*^%$* night.

[fljerry]

How come Nunez is playing instead of Helms???? He will strike out everytime against Miller

[curt]

And since he must be in the lineup, how many more weeks will it be til Cholly moves him from the 6th to the 8th slot where he sort of fits?

[RSB]

Moyer = Nunez.

[curt]

jerry you really need to stop embarrassing yourself. Are you watching the game? Do you see where every ball is being hit?

Then turn to the hitting stats, where you'll see that Nunez is all over Helms against lefties.

[hititonthegroundjroll]

its refreshing when a pitcher on our team can actually hit a successful sacrifice bunt. and against a goofy lefty nonetheless. good stuff moyer!

[Tray]

Curt, you act like Victorino never made a bad out either. He's actually hitting .230 with runners in scoring position, six walks, eight strikeouts, just three extra-base hits, .294 OBA. That's pretty awful. Pat, on the other hand, .265 with runners in scoring position, 16 walks and 11 strikeouts, .433 OBA. And as you just saw, Victorino failed with runners in scoring position again.

[fljerry]

Curt if you seen Nunez lately? He's a strikeout star. He pinchhit the other day and got a bloop hit which he just stuck his bat out. Now if you said he was in strictly for defense then you might have a case but don't give me this hes better hitter than Helms.

[curt]

Tray -- so you'd draft PtBB ahead of Vic when you put together you team?

Jerry -- the simple point is that it would have been insane to start Helms tonight for any reason.

[fljerry]

Nunez who played almost all last year especially after Bell left batted 211. Now how can you say hes better than Helms as a hitter. Actaully Helms has more hits than Nunez this year.

[RSB]

You still want J-Roll to hit it on the ground? He's second on the team in homers.

And Tray, please. Give it up. Burrell sucks.

[fljerry]

Curt I sure hope by end of game you can still say Nunez was the right choice to play third.

[joe]

rowand is a man possessed!

[Tray]

Well, Victorino's a much better fielder and base-runner - they're both mediocre offensively at the moment so I'd have to go with Victorino right now because he brings more to the table. But if Burrell started hitting like he usually does, 30 home runs or so, I might be inclined to take him first.

[fljerry]

Are we going to let Rowand walk or even trade him at deadline. Hes my center fielder and somehow we get another outfielder and get rid of Burrell.

[Tray]

I would like Rowand to get traded, he could bring a good reliever, we get something for him instead of just letting him go, the odds are against his hitting in the .320s all year, and I like that he's scrappy as much as anyone else but he botches quite a few plays in the outfield.

[joe]

tray,

i'm going to take clout's role here.

you're an idiot.

there is NOTHING about the current PtB that makes him more valuable than Vic.

hell, pat only has 2 more hr's than vic.

it not even close.

[Terry]

No team in their right mind would take Burrell for any reason without the Phils eating most of his remaining salary. Unfortunately, Rowand is the Phils most tradeable commodity right now. Before this season his bat was ho-hum at best. He's great defensively but I think we can get prospect or major league ready OF in return as well as bullpen help for Rowand. Besides I think we could live with Michael Bourn's demon speed for the remainder of the season if he gets the nod.

[fljerry]

Nunez got a hit which surprised me but naturally he screwed up by not going to third on groundout - hes not use to being on base I guess

[Terry]

Pat Burrell is a bum and doesn't care about the game anymore. He'd rather drink and smoke it up with his buddies everynight after the game. The guy is a jerk and has been

[mark goldentyer]

and if Abe gets thrown out at third you would have said....?

[joe]

why would anyone want to trade the BEST HITTER ON THE TEAM RIGHT NOW for a middle reliever?

It makes no sense. If the Phils want to hit the post season this year, Rowand *has* to be on the team.

[fljerry]

Joe seems like we are the only ones who agree - What can we get thats better than rowand?

[RSB]

I agree, too. Rowand isn't going anywhere, and unless the team is 20 games out at the deadline, he shouldn't.

[bay_area_phan]

When you're 3 games out of first place, it would be zany to trade your second best offensive player (which is what Rowand has been this year) - in exchange for prospects.

The Phillies' pitching sucks, so they need to score runs to win games. They do lead the league in runs -- in no small part because of Rowand -- but their run-scoring potential ends with the 5th hitter in the lineup -- maybe the 6th if they're facing a right-hander & Dobbs starts. Without Rowand, more than half of their lineup would be dead wood. There is nothing that Michael Bourn has shown, either in the minors or the majors, to suggest that he can be a viable major league centerfielder at this time.

If the Phillies are 10 out by the end of July, I might amend my opinion. But if you're 3 out of first place, you don't trade away one of your key offensive players for prospects. The Phillies have been "one year away" for about the last 10 years. If they have a shot to finally get over the hump, then this year takes priority over next year.

[RSB]

Utley is beautiful to watch right now. He's hitting everything hard, to all fields.

[Terry]

Pitching is more important than having a fan favorite CF at this point. For the moment we're down two closers and our 3rd starter without any guarantee than any of them will return healthy and produce.

[fljerry]

Speaking of Rowand and Victorino

[RSB]

Finally, a run without a homer. Rowand really has done the job this year. Turns out he might have been the answer in the no. 5 hole all along.

[Terry]

Atta boy Pat!!! Pat is a base on balls machine!!

[Terry]

Noonan!!!!

[bay_area_phan]

I could care less about whether Rowand is a fan favorite. I do care, however, that he's hitting .327 with 10 homeruns, plus .356 with RISP.

You're not gonna get a top drawer starting pitcher for Aaron Rowand because teams that have such pitchers do not trade them. You MIGHT get a pretty good reliever but, even if you do, that reliever will only pitch in about 40 innings for the rest of the season, as opposed to the 600+ innings you will get from Rowand.

[joe]

terry,

what don't you understand? Rowand is more than a "fan favorite", he's beating the cover off the ball this year.

why would trading the 6th best hitter in the league right now for a middle relieve, who will give you 100 innings, maybe, be a good deal?

it makes no sense.

[fljerry]

The problem with Rowand though is hes a free agent and may not want to sign back with the Phils - if thats the case we have to trade him or get a draft choice which would be a fairly high one between first and second round

[curt]

Moyer's outdoing himself, again.

[bay_area_phan]

Jerry, You're stating a case for keeping him not trading him. You can't get a compensatory draft choice by trading him. You can only get it by keeping him to the end of the year, then offering him arbitration.

[Terry]

I guess you're telling me that once the Chicago Whitesox or Cubs are completely out of it that you would'nt move Rowand to get Mark Buerhle or Carlos Zambrano to bolster your rotation? If your answer is no then you're truly a novice because pitching wins championships. You have to give to get and we don't have alot of moveable pieces. Our minor league talent is non-existent. Who else would you deal?

[Steve Jeltz]

If you think we can trade Rowand for Zambrano straight up you're a novice. Why would a team that's out of if it trade for a veteran with contract expiring at the end of the season?

[bay_area_phan]

Terry: I'm not a novice, but I do live in the real world. Why would a team that is OUT of contention trade a valuable commodity like Zambrano or Buerhle in exchange for a 2-month rental? It is teams that are IN contention that trade for rental players.

[bay_area_phan]

Howard has turned into Rob Deer.

[curt]

Yes, Howard is officially awful again. Where is that great hitting instructor?

[fljerry]

bay_area - I was giving 2 scenarios - 1 is we keep him till end of season and he leaves we get the draft choice - the other is we trade him if we can not or he will not sign with us

[Terry]

Zambrano and Buerhle are hypothetical. If someone of their caliber becomes available trust me!!!!!! Gillick will deal Rowand to get them. Don't get me wrong Rowand is doing great but I think this season is aberration. He'll be back to his usual self of hitting .270 with marginal power just like years past.

[Terry]

Pitching 101 performed with the greatest of ease by Jamie Moyer.

[curt]

It'll be a crime if the BP can't hold this for Moyer.

[bay_area_phan]

Terry, You're dreaming if you think that some team is going to trade a pitcher of Buerhle or Zambrano's caliber for a 2-month rental of Aaron Rowand.

[bay_area_phan]

If the bullpen squanders this lead, the story of the game will be all the squandered scoring opportunities. This game should be about 7-2 right now.

[curt]

bay -- no, that's the story line of about 25 losses so far, but the line of this one would be BP blows a 2 run lead with 6 outs (or less) to go.

[bay_area_phan]

Well, I won't argue with you, Curt. But they HAVE missed a lot of chances to blow this game open. In fact, I was so appalled by their lack of clutch hitting that, in my last post, I committed the literary gaffe of using the word "squander" twice in the same sentence. I guess I need to proof-read these posts a little more carefully.

[mark goldentyer]

Nice two bagger by my man Abe. A two out run. Hey, how about a Cy Old award to go along with Cy Young? Jamie Moyer could compete W/ the Big Unit and a few others.

[Billy Mac]

Great job by Jamie tonight. I shouldn't have doubted him.

[Terry]

We've missed some chances but we're relentless!!!! We get done despite the slumping of Howard and Burrell.

[joe]

>Howard has seven home runs and 18 RBI in 18
>games since his return from the DL, reports
>the Philadelphia Inquirer.

yes, the very definition of slumping.

at some point, its about winning THIS year. If the phils are in a race, theyneed to keep rowand. no amount of minor league prospects will help you this year.

the tradeable commodities on ths team right now are bourn, madson, barajas, and *maybe* werth and dobbs.

[bay_area_phan]

Bourn is probably the most tradeable commodity we have. No one wants Barajas or Werth & all we'd likely get for Madson is another reliever of the same ilk. And I'm not in a hurry to trade Dobbs.

[joe l]

barajas is a tradable commodity? can I personally drive him to the airport?

[joe]

madson could get you a one year rental on a bottom of the order starter. i think that madson has 2 or three years of arb left.

you ight be able to pull trachsel and a truckload of NoDoz for Madson.

[joe]

barajas is tradeable, only because competent backup catchers are always in demand at the deadline.

[joe]

4 run lead and the closer is in?

unpossible!

(its fairly normal.)

[curt]

Gotta love Utley still working there, and seeing Howard takes a leftie to left...was afraid it was never going to happen again.

[bay_area_phan]

Oh boy. Alfonseca was due for a bad performance. I just hope it's not a 4-runs kind of bad.

[curt]

This is a dangerous lineup for good pitchers -- for our BP is it TNT with the fuse burning..

[ae]

whew. glad to get out of that one alive.

[curt]

Moyer = stud.

[Dave X]

If Bourne is the best trading piece we have we're in trouble. OFs with no power that don't hit for average and have OK plate discipline aren't really a hot commodity. Maybe he can start stealing 1st with all of that speed, though, right?

[Malcolm]

Back to 2 back, 1 back of the Bravos.

Bravo, Phils.

[attytood will]

Nice win -- lots o' contributors, Moyer, Victorino, Rowand, great inning by Madson right here at CBP.

Also, nice job by Howard going to left with that two-strike pitch for a run-scoring double. Rob Deer? I think not.

[clout]

I sure wouldn't want to trade Rowand, but I will say this: If either Myers, Garcia and/or Gordon can't come back this season and the team doesn't acquire at least quality pitcher, it will NOT make the playoffs. You can take that to the 'Bank.

[bay_area_phan]

Well, I don't really disagree, Dave. Bourn is hardly a great trading chip but, of the guys we could plausibly trade, he IS the best trading chip on our major league roster. And I do think there are teams out there who see potential in Bourn & would be willing to give up a serviceable relief pitcher for him. There have been rumors that Texas would be willing to give up Eric Gagne for Michael Bourn.

[clout]

Dave: What makes you think Bourn can't hit for average? His minor league career average is .285. He'll hit for more average than Victorino. You're right about the power, though, he doesn't have a lick.

[That Dude]

Remember I told yas CJ Henry couldnt play? I watched him too many times last year for the Class A Chas Riverdogs...he is just an athelete...he cant even field his position.

[Dave X]

Clout, your right, looking at it, there's no real reason to think that he won't hit at least decently, but I don't think it'll be enough to give him value as anything more than a 4th OF - he seems like a copy of Joey Gathright, and he only netted the Rays a mediocre relief pitcher.

[Tray]

I think we have a better chance of winning now if we dealt Rowand for someone like Lidge, Gagne, Otsuka, etc. Now granted, there aren't many teams for whom that kind of a deal would make sense, you rent Rowand if you want to win/improve your lineup, and you're probably not putting your closer on the market if you want to win. But there's really no way we make the playoffs with this pitching staff, even when Myers comes back. The starters aren't good enough. So you can put Myers back into the rotation but, as you saw today, Alfonseca's really only someone you can count on to get the easy saves.

[Tray]

And if they could get Gagne for Bourn they should make that deal this second.

[clout]

Dave: I think the Gathright comparison works. Bourn has a little better strike zone judgment and is a way better base stealer, but they're the same type player.

[SC]

FYI, for those who don't know, Victorino is our best tradable commodity. He won't hit free agency for several years, he steals tons of bases and he's considered a superior defensive OF. He has a ton of value as a starting CF. Unfortunately, that's causing the phils to not look at locking up rowand long term. Can't imagine him back here next year, unfortunately.

[RSB]

I don't agree with the trade-Bourn contingency. Bourn is a guy who very likely could be a solid regular player for ten years or more, and he *could* turn into something along the lines of Kenny Lofton; I believe he will develop more power than he's shown this far. I wouldn't be so quick to mortgage that potential for a relief pitcher who's always an inning away from a visit to james Andrews - particularly as no one is sure if Rowand will return.

This is precisely why it's so important to address your bullpen in the off-season,
and patch and fill and overpay if necessary for free agents. This is the reason why
Polanco got traded and there's nothing to show for it. The Phillies fall into this
trap nearly every season. Now isn't the time to go raiding whatever's left in the
cupboard, trading from weakness.

On the other hand, Bourn is not ready to help this team win at present; therefore, it's imperative that they keep Rowand around. They'd just be opening a huge hole if they tried to fill another by trading him. And Rowand, like him or not, has established himself as an integral - perhaps essential - component of this year's team, and you don't mess with that for *any reason*. My vote, therefore, is to just stick with what they have, and if they can happen to sneak another Moyer or Conine near the end for low-level prospects, go for it. But there is no one I could consider expendable on the major league roster (aside from those who have no value). Gillick either needs to get that 'savvy' mojo back or just bite the bullet.

Not incidentally, kudos to Moyer for tonight's win. A much improved effort, all-around.

[Hank]

You keep bringing up Justin Germano, I hope you realize that he went 12In/16hits/10runs/6.00ERA during Spring Training. They didn't release him, he was just out of options and was claimed when they tried to send him down.They already had one starter in the bullpen, but with those Spring numbers there wasn't much to do with him. Like Lieber he obiously is better suited as a starter than a reliever(which is what he was used as in the spring

[ajc1]

The Phillies placed RHP Francisco Rosario on the 15-day disabled list with right shoulder inflammation. RHP Brian Sanches was called up from Triple-A Ottawa to take his spot.

Have a good week y'all - leaving my laptop at home and heading to wine country for vacation, where my wife will have to put up with my baseball rants and raves in the interim. God bless her.

[That Dude]

I am going to say something controversial in that if I were the Phils I wouldn't make any trade that takes away from their current starting 9. Some of these RP'ers are starting to come into their own. Asmuch as Rowand's fielding frustrates me, I think you cannot not over value his clubhouse presence. I say stand pat (pun intended)

[Ben Keeler]

i see rosario was put on the "DL." dont know if anyone else heard the radio pregame call in show where giilck was talking his praises. sickening.

i thought moyer would pitch well as i said this afternoon. as LA would say "scott (graham or franzke), you just got to have a feel."

[J. Weitzel]

Old reliable Brian Sanches. He can't pitch in the majors, but the Phillies see it as the least amount of effort, roster-wise.

[GM-Carson]

I was at the game last night, awesome atmosphere. I've been to other stadiums and the crowd doesn't feed like that off their team. Philly wants to win so bad, hopefully our boys can continue to slowly notch themselves up in the standings.

At the game, I had one of the biggest thrills of my life, I got to meet ESPN's Jayson Stark, pose for a picture with him, and have him sign a copy of his new book for me. I love his stuff on ESPN and he's a Philly boy.

Moyer pitched well, besides the 2 jacks, but the Phils do lead MLB with 87 surrendered.

About Rowand- do not trade him! I will admit the entire offseason I wanted him jettisoned for a setup guy, but he's far too valuable to this offense right now and although I'm not in the lockerroom, all the reports are that he's a great clubhouse pressence.

About Burrell- I've defended him many years...yep years, but he sucks right now. Can draw a walk but that's it.

About Brian Sanches- I didn't think I'd ever see him in MLB again. He's horrible. Why the need for an extra reliever that won't get used? BRING BACK COSTE!