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Sunday, June 10, 2007


It seems like every game is a big game for the Phillies, but it'd be rather devastating to leave Kansas City with 2 losses in three games. Moyer can get the job done. And it was nice that the bullpen got the night off after Garcia's blow up.

Garcia finally on the DL. What took them so long? Let's try to fill this spot from the minors and NOT with Brett Myers. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I like him more as our closer. I think he has a chance to add more wins to this team in that role than as a starter. And wins are what I care about.

coming into the season the talk around baseball was that our rotation was one of the top 10 in the league based upon our depth throughout the staff. But now it looks like other than Hamels and 75% of the time with Moyer, the rest of the rotation is a crap shoot on what your going to get every nite.

In looking at next season, I'm wondering what this rotation could look like if they do decide that Myers is their closer, do not sign Lieber & Garcia, and if Moyer retires. Thats alot to lose. I'm guessing that Mathieson won't be ready until mid next season at the earliest and who knows whether he's even a starter when he returns considering there were some in the front office who thought he had potential as a back of the pen guy. I would have to guess that Happ and someone else internally will need to be up here at some point in the very near future.

When Gillick says that we aren't contending until 2008, I'm shocked cause the way it looks this is the year to make the playoffs considering our staff next year could be one of the worst in baseball.

Forget that 2008 soundbite - he was just trying to buy time when he said that.

Did the Gio/Floyd for Garcia deal look like a 2008 move?

The only thing that happens in 2008 is we lose a few middling FAs, pick up a few middling FAs, and the remaining guys are a year older. There's no crop to be harvested on the farm.

Did I miss something? No JA Happ call-up? Or is that too many lefties?

Happ is hurt. Segovia, who got a spot start earlier, has been ineffective, but is still a possibility. One of the reports mentions Childers, a minor league vet, but he's hurt and it would be unlikely anyway.

see, I knew I missed something. Thanks, J.

I wanted to make sure this was mentioned from the Inquirer this morning.

"The Phillies signed Mesa after front-office adviser Dallas Green watched him throw Friday in Clearwater, Fla."

Now we know who to blame. Again.

Why is no one talking about Brian Mazone? I know he's old but he's had a 2.0 era for two years now. He would seem like a perfect candidate for some spot starts.

mazone is no longer property of phils. they sold him off to Japan. If you read Davthom's posts you would know that since he has man crushes on ex independent league guys.

Hey crazy jon, you still wanna trade j-roll now that he's hitting again?

Can someone please explan to me why J-Roll was running with 2 outs? I mean, a sac fly won't bring him home from 3rd, and he's fast enough that just about any single will bring him home from 2nd. Am I missing something?

it was going to be a double steal - both runners were going

Johnny: If you're missing something, so am I. My little league coach taught me never to make the last out of the inning at third base.

Phillie baserunning has been atrocious all year. Why should anything change now?

Maybe he figured with PtB at the plate he had a better chance of making something happen than did PtB.

There was some chatter on the previous thread about Bubba Nelson being a potential fill-in 5th starter. One problem: He's not on the 40-man roster, which means someone would have to be designated for assignment before he could be added. Not that there's any great shortage of candidates, of course.

Sure would be fun to see ol Brandon Duckworth before we leave town.

Nunez definitely did not let me down - strike out

This is clearly going to be one of those games where the Phillies score 3 runs, while leaving 14 runners on base.

bay - with an ordinary lefty out there throwing against us, that's a pretty good day you're describing. Our lineup against lefties doesn't have a few holes, it's mostly holes.

Ok, I'm starting to freak out a little bit. Will somebody please reassure me that Ryan Howard isn't another Pat Burrell? Please?

With the Mets being tattooed, Phils have a chance to close the gap to 4 IF they can take care of business here.

OK, he's not another Pat Burrell. He's always been a high-strikeout guy. Remember how people searching for comparisons used to say Willie McCovey? McCovey spent the first few years of his career platooning with Orlando Cepeda. But his major problem this year has been recognizing the strike zone against lefties. Most of these pitches he's swinging at and missing are not strikes.

Moyer really stinks today.

Moyer now out of the game after 3 2-3 innings of hanging curveballs. What a letdown.

remember Moyer pitched in American league for 10 yrs - they know him - national leaguers will not get to him the first few times he pitches

Why are we going to Madson so early? KC broadcast said nothing about the "why." Freshest arm?

Was really hoping for a look at ol Duckworth. There's really not much more you can ask for than an ex-Phillie pitcher.

To quote Apu Nahasapeemapetilon, "Such a mighty wallop."

Time to feed Utley & Dobbs in at the earliest opportunities to drive in runs. That's way too many rbis sitting on the bench.

Go Nunez - guy is horrible hitter

This at bat — weirdly enough — may be the most important of the season.

And of course, Madson serves one right up the junction, pretty much putting this one out of reach.

Shaping up as a signature Phillie effort --

-Game they should win
-baserunning error
-Poor effort from SP
-No clutch hitting
-Poor effort from BP

You can image my surprise that the Phillies go to Kansas City and lose two of three. Never would have thought a team this fierce, this killer, would allow that to happen.

Yeah, I mean, they're such a feisty team with so much heart and energy. They play every game as if it's their last.

Oh look! Jose Mesa!

Werth could stand out there all week and never catch up to this guy.

We'll always have 1980...

The new Jose Mesa Era has finally arrived in Phila!

(And to think we might have ended up with Percival, if he hadn't wanted to be paid.)

Few thoughts:

- Sad to say but I think Mesa is an upgrade at this point over Condrey. While Condrey was effective at times last year, he was just awful this year and had no business being with the big league club.

Maybe Mesa works out like Weird Beard. If not, you can cut him in a month. Not exactly like the Phils have any real viable alternatives at T-AAA to fill out the bullpen.

- CJ: You are dead wrong about Myers being more valuable to this team as the closer than in the rotation. Starting pitching as been as poor as the bullpen and is going to be a huge problem with Garcia's injury.

I just don't know if Myers can go back into the rotation again. Hate to yank him back and forth especially after coming off an injury.

- The Phils minor league system is supposedly deep with arms but I just don't see it. Yet again this season, the Phils are scrambling to find a legit starter from their minor league system. Worked out well with Hamels but Mathieson was a disaster last year. Doubt that any of the guys mentioned (Kendrick, Nelson) will bring much to the table.

Well that was a fitting start to the JM Era..

Mesa's second tour off to a rousing start. Two runs on wild pitches.

Phillies don't have the pitching, y'all.


Why do the Phils seem to always play poorly in in interleague play ever year? Always seem to account for their annual June swoon.

If you lose 2 or 3 to a dreadful Royals team, I am not optimistic about a 10-game stretch that includes 3 against the Tigers and Indians.

MJ after this from Mesa you still think hes an upgrade to Condrey - condrey the other day pitched over 3 innings without giving up a run.

Ya think? Yeah, it might be a bad sign when the Royals twice score as many runs against us as they normally score in a week.

"Phils sweep Mets, will now lose 2 of 3 to the Royals, the 2nd worst team in baseball. Come on, you know they will. Damn this team!" 06/08/07

Two straight wild pitches by Mesa! Priceless! Oh, and I was listening on the radio when Mesa came into the game and they said that Mesa said that he struggled in Detroit because they wouldn't let him pitch enough. Because apparently some teams don't want a pitcher with a 12.34 ERA to pitch every day. But there is good news for pitchers with 10+ ERAs: the Phillies are still in the MLB, so they'll always have a roster spot!

We now see why Mesa has a 12+ ERA despite throwing at 95, and it's not because "all his pitches are flat." It's because he can't throw his breaking pitch more than 59 feet, which means everything he throws is a fastball. I think that inning qualifies for the word "travesty."

Nunez let me down - hit one back to pitcher instead of striking out

fljerry - Can't be much worse than Condrey. Watching Condrey this season has been like watching batting practice. Opposing hitters have hit him hard all season and on top of it Condrey hasn't had decent control all season.

Geary? Good move Cholly, Mesa, then Geary.

And Alfonseca to finish of course. It's not like we need to save bullpen arms or anything.

I'm gonna predict that LaRussa and Duncan turn old Percival into a stud reliever. I mean why not? Ryan Franklin is pitching right now with a 1.91 ERA.

I can't see any way to foresee Moyer throwing a clunker. He's been a good pitcher in this park, and his day game stats aren't out of the ordinary. But, to play "Let's Blame Cholly," it would have been nice to treat this as a winnable game when it was 6-5 in the sixth and Madson suddenly lost the plate, nearly hitting Gathright, who should have been a three-pitch strikeout. Get out of that inning just one run down and this would still be a ballgame.

Gotta love Harry. "Phils set the infield at triple play depth."

The KC lineup may all be at .300 by the end of this series.

Curt, you mean you don't think Smoke Another is a major=league caliber pitching coach?

Meanwhile we have 4 or 5 guys who haven't hit for a month and seem to be in a hellbent race to get to the Mendoza line first.

Am I really still watching this? What does that say about me as a person?

alby - I'd say he's of roughly the same caliber as Cholly, Smith & Williams, the Phil front office, and the Phil ownership.

The way KC is hitting - you have to give lots of credit to Lieber on his 3 hit pitching yesterday

OK, now that they've tacked on a garbage-time touchdown, I guess it was never winnable after all.

I wonder if there is any chance our guys got the wrong message when Jose was signed and actually used in a game. It does seem like they've sorta quit.

What's their record on getaway days again?

I know what you mean, Johnny -- I'm starting to think I should have gone in to work instead.

KC has moved up 4 slots in AL hitting stats in just 3 days.

We've really got our work cut out for us in the 9th.

Simply stunning.

Wait, it's 17-5? Hahahahaha!

Top of the order, anything's possible...

The Nunez defenders sure are quiet today. Should I pull up a few of their past posts?

MG: I don't know how to can say the starting rotation is worse than the bullpen. There's no comparison.

I repeat: The job of the bullpen is to hold the lead or, when the team is down, don't allow the gap to widen. How has this team's bullpen performed in those tasks this season?

Can we say major purge? I mean, the Braves and Mets series were more due to the other teams playing badly. This is more an indicator of this team — it's the exact team we've known for the past 4 or 5 years.

Nunez?? He really killed us. Too bad the little b*stard can't pitch. Or knock in 17 runs or score 17 runs.

Malcolm: One thing that must happen is Mesa cut loose as soon as Garcia's spot in the rotation comes around. I favor adding Kyle Kendrick to the 40-man roster.

curt: Well at least you have the guts to admit you're one of his defenders. All he did today was embarrass himself at the plate and make a bad throw to Rollins. But, hey, he'll be fine if they just play him every day, right?

clout -- He's what we've got. Who else could Cholly have put on 2B today? Who else can play 3B and not kick every other game away? Even Cholly has that much figured out, and he is very very slow. There's nothing clever about saying "Nunez sucks" every fifteen minutes. As you may have noticed today, we've got a whole bunch of players who suck, but someone has to play the game.

Clout - I said that the starting pitching has been as poor as the bullpen (if you look at the stats coming into today's game they were nearly the same). Still think that Myers would help this team more as a starter in the rotation than throwing Kedrick, Nelson, etc. out there their every 5th day while Garcia is on the DL.

Yeah the bullpen was absolutely horrendous today but you aren't going to win may games when you starter goes less than 4 innings and gives up 6 runs. Pretty of blame to go around in regards to poor pitching.

come on curt - there has to be lots of defensive players in the minors who can play and at least put the ball in play. Nunez was worse last year playing everyday after they got rid of Bell and he has not improved. He does play a good third base but I am sure there are lots that can do that in minors and they should release Nunez and take the financial loss.

Notice how we're blaming someone else each night? Meanwhile, there are real contenders finding ways to win games every night. This culture has been prevalent for years, and yet nothing has changed.

Sure I get high when the sweep the Mets, but when these seasons are finished, we always see the same result. Where are the online petitions? The rally against the organization?

fljerry: Exactly right. If Nunez didn't have the contract he's go0t, he wouldn't be on the team. A Dobbs/Coste platoon would be better than Helms defensively and offensively and far superior to Nunez.

MG: If Garcia is out for the season, then Myers probably will have to move into the rotation. If not, I think he should stay where he is. The bullpen has been horrible except for brief stretches and the addition of Myers improved them.

Oh, and clout, if I were interested in playing your little games, I could ask where is Madson's defenders today? Or where is the guy who declared Helms the everyday 3B? But I really don't give a crap about which poster's opinion turns out to be right and wrong on any given subject. No one's keeping score. Life's too short.

As far as I'm concerned, this board is for venting about the Phillies. Your little games with other posters bore me, and I'm not gonna play any more.

Clout - Here is the split between the starters vs. relievers coming into today's game:


23-22, 4.74 ERA (14th), 1.36 WHIP, 381.1 IP, 2.42 BB/K, 7.08 K/9, 58 HR, .272 BAA


9-8, 4.38 ERA (12th), 1.52 WHIP, 176.2 IP, 1.72 BB/K, 7.18 K/9, 21 HR, .270 BAA

I would generally say that the performance of both groups has been pretty poor but I am much more disappointed by the starting pitching so far this season.

As for Myers, I guess you put him back in the pen for the time being but the team is better served for 2008 and beyond if Myers is back in the rotation.

curt: I'm not sure you get to define the board. That's Jason's job. But let's just say that some opinions are more reasoned and thoughtful than others and we'll leave it at that.

MG: Relievers ERA will be better than starters on just about every team in baseball because of the inherited runners and because starters pitch way more innings. More interesting would be to see how many times the Phillies relievers held the lead (or didn't) and how many times they kept a losing margin the same (or allowed it to grow).

first game i missed all year; had to help someone move and avoiding hearing anything about the game until i got home - what an embarassment. The Royals are terrible - and now we play Detroit, White Sox, and Cleveland. The thing is, everyone pretty much knew this is how this series would go down. glad i missed today's "effort"

I also see Jose Mesa got off to a great start. I just dont feel confident with Eaton pitching on ESPN tomorrow night. He has pitched so dreadful at CBP.

Brian G -- When you said, "(w)hy is no one talking about Brian Mazone?", you tapped into my thinking in a post I made on an earlier thread a day or so ago.

However, the problem with Mazone is this -- discouraged and seeing no hope with Gillick's in-the-box organization, Mazone signed with a Korean team -- which likely would demand more for a buyout of Mazone's contract than the Phillies would be willing to pay for a guy as to whom the team initially would be looking to for only a couple of tryout starts/long relief appearances.

Otherwise,had Mazone stayed put in Ottawa, I agree with you that Mazone would have been a good candidate for a couple of spot starts.

And although Clout disagrees with me on this, I think the only way to see if Mazone's consistent fine starting success might translate into a "Moyer-type" (but not the Moyer of today) big league pitcher would be to give Mazone a shot -- something the Phillies were all set to do in a weekday day game at CBP last September, only to have a rainout of that game end Mazone's one chance -- and he was immediately sent back down to Scranton Wilkes-Barre.

If, however, Mazone's contract with the Korean team gives him an "out" if he gets a MLB offer -- something I doubt -- then Mazone certainly should be worth some consideration.

Garcia's trip to the DL aside, the Phillies' starting pitching is imploding, and almost any option would be worth at least looking at at this point, IMO.

Well, the Dodgers and Mets lost and the Diamondbacks still may, though currently they're up 2-1 going into the seventh. The good news is we're going up against the White Sox next, who have scored the fewest runs in baseball, bat .232 as a team, and will have to bench either Thome or Konerko - possibly Thome, considering that they don't seem to like to play him at first base. Contreras vs. Hamels is a favorable matchup, and Vazquez vs. Eaton isn't so bad. Don't know who will start against Danks, but I think we ought to take 2.

Any 3 game series that Hamels pitches in is almost becoming a must win series.

meaning we just cant afford to waste his starts with the other starters they way they are right now

The Phils' rotation is not imploding it has just not been good enough all year. The Phils have had one good starter (Hamels), two average starters (Moyer and Lieber), and two below average starters (Eaton and Garcia). Just not going to cut it, even with an offense that puts up a bunch of runs.

Man, I just got home and all I can say is what the hell happened?? Is it time to finally consider firing the manager or the general manager?? This inconsistent play should be unacceptable! And finally, Jose Mesa, you still suck! BOOOOOOOOO...

Totally off topic, but Bobby Abreu has been on fire for the last week and went 4 for 4 today. His average is now up to .272 & his OBP up to .365. Those out there who defended the Abreu trade are quickly losing whatever little ammunition they might have had.

ugh, you always gotta wonder with the old guys, moyer, glavine, smoltz, johnson, clemens, which game will be their last.

its scary, because moyer didn't suddenly forget how to pitch, its that his already limited arsenal left him for the day.

scary indeed.

An obvious theory on Moyer is that changing leagues has greatly improved his pitching. The two outings in which he's faced AL teams, he's been strafed. Of course, it could be a coincidence that his worst starts of the year have come at these times, but it seems his overall performance had been flagging towards the end with Seattle.

Jose Mesa. *shaking head* Jose...Mesa.

Why hasn't Eude Brito been mentioned as a possible replacement?? Is he injured? He pitched decently last year when called upon. I know his numbers are poor in the minors this year, but at least he has a partial track record.

I think Moyer just kept the ball in the middle of the plate. Anyone could hit those pitches, even the worst team in baseball.

No-Hit Nunez is back like he's never been before, he's reaching all time lows. June: 3-26 for a .115 average and .322 OPS. Dating back to late May, Nuni is only 3 for his last 35. Matt Morris (a pitcher!) had 3 hits in one game against us. Where's all the Bag-of-Crap-Nuni supporters now? Does he still deserve to play every day? A bunch of you morons suggested he actually hits more when he plays regularly...B.S.!!! His flail and bail swing is not conducive to hitting.

Brito is hurt.

DavThom, I look at Mazone to Korea as a good move for him -- I'm sure he's getting paid more there than the major league minimum. I agree that if he were still in the system, he would merit the nod over Kendrick.

Nunez was well below replacement level last year; this year he's right around it. That means that he could be replaced easily, not by someone better, but by someone at that level, a group that includes Wes Helms.

Clout, what's your basis for claiming that a Coste/Dobbs platoon would field better than Helms? I could understand you claiming they couldn't be worse, but of course we wouldn't know that unless it was tried. After seeing Dobbs in action for a game, I'm not sure it's true. I'm not saying such a platoon is a bad idea, but even if it were tried, Nunez would stay on the roster -- he's the only backup infielder who can play shortstop.

The only time I feel even reasonably safe with Nunez at bat is when there is a man on first with less than two out. His uncanny ability to either K or hit one of his patented swinging bunts back to the pitcher makes him awfully hard to double up.

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