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Tuesday, June 12, 2007


repeating my post from the end of last thread:
davthom: I like the Coste idea. The kid could throw to a catcher he's comfortable with. Put Ruiz on the 15-day DL, backdated, and cut Mesa. Let the record show that the first 2 posters to call for Kendrick to get this start (way before his name was even mentioned by Phillies management) were Jason and I. Now let's see how smart or dumb we are.

alby: With Garcia out for the year, I'm also inclined to put Myers back into the rotation but I disagree that just about anyone can setup and close. I think the bullpen will be total disaster and cost the team the playoffs if they don't have Myers & Gordon back there and fail to make a move. Geary and Madson flat out don't have the talent to pitch those crucial situations on a regular basis.

If they decide to keep Myers in the pen, that's good for the pen, but then they have to hope they catch lightning in a bottle with Kendrick or Rosario or some other organization guy. Odds are stacked against that. Either scenario they have to make a trade.

The odds are against us, clout. To our defense, what other choice do they have besides a trade?

Besides Triple-A, some nice things are starting to happen in the minors. Golson is hitting okay, but still too many strikeouts. Instead of an F, I might be tempted to give their minor league a D-.

oh, who cares who called for him first? the other two options were a guy with no control currently (segovia) and a guy getting blasted in AAA (durbin). the choices were slim to choose from to begin with. its astouding how little depth we have. this is essentially the same thing as last year when mathieson was called up from AA after having a breakout year following slow development. what does it say that the org's prospects are at A and AA and that AAA is filler constantly getting leapfrogged? and when they do have someone at AA who can play (ruiz, coste), they rot there until every other not-so-well-thought-out option is exhausted.

the more you follow this organization, the less enjoyable the sport is.

oops, that should be "someone at AAA who can play". ruiz had 2 good years at AAA before he got called up to be the arguably better catcher on the big league roster.

It's starting to smell like Steve Trachsel around here.

Since June 1 the Phils are 7-4 despite being outscored 63-45. Does this mean they have been extremely lucky or do the few lopsided losses the last couple weeks (0-13, 5-17, 1-8) not mean anything?

I think the fate of the rest of the Phillies' season is dependent upon how well the OTHER four starters throw and how quickly Myers and Gordon get healthy and get back to the 'pen. If Lieber and Eaton can make starts like their more recent with some consistency, this team will be alright. The Mets are showing signs of mortality, and the Braves have injury problems of their own. The division is still up for grabs.

Kendrick could get shelled and still not be any worse than Garcia's been.

>It's starting to smell like Steve Trachsel around

Oh good lord! Who are we gonna ship? Burrell? Bourn?

at least we could replace "dollar dog nights" with "no doz nights" on trachsel starts.

Madson for Trachsel?

>Madson for Trachsel?

in a heartbeat.

rowand? i dunno....

Jason - not Trachsel...I heard a rumor that they put in a call to Paul Abbott, and had inquired about Mark Redman.

Both can be had for the minimum!!!!!

With Freddy Garcia possibly out for the remainder of the season, let the 5th starter debate officially begin.

Move that makes sense:
Plug Brett Myers back into the rotation. This will not happen as management has already said he will remain in the bullpen.

Ottawa Options:
Zach Segovia, J.D. Durbin, J.A. Happ (DL), Bubba Nelson, Eude Brito, and Matt Childers (DL). *None of them seem to be ready for MLB.

Reading Options:
Kyle Kendrick, Landon Jabocsen, Matthew Maloney, Tim McClaskey, and Heath Totten. *Kendrick got the call, but once again, it does not seem like any of them are ready for MLB.

MLB Scrap Heap:
Tomo Ohka...this is who I want. Laugh if you will, but it's better than rushing a "prospect" or trading for a player that simply isn't worth it (Steve Trachsel).

Tony - consider who they were playing during that time period: the worst hitting team in the AL, the worst team in the AL, the Mutts without 3 starters, & the worst team in the NL West. It doesn't get any easier than that.

What about the Little Dictator? Isn't Fabio Castro starting in Ottawa?

From FoxSports- There are former big-league pitchers in the Mexican League such as Jose Lima, but how much of an upgrade are they? The Phillies get reports from the Mexican League, and they will take a look at somebody if he looks interesting, but Ruben Amaro said, "We're trying to do better than what we have here. And if we don't think it's decidedly better than what we have here, then what's the point of doing it? Just to do it? You don't make moves just to make them. We have to make a move that's going to make sense to make our team better, you know?"

*My take- then why the hell did you bring back Jose Mesa?!

In his 11/2 years as the Phils' general manager, Pat Gillick has made two trades with the White Sox. In those trades, he has dealt Jim Thome (and $22 million), Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez, whom he originally acquired from the White Sox. In return, the Phils have Aaron Rowand, the injured Freddy Garcia, and, indirectly, Fabio Castro, who was obtained for Dan Haigwood, another player acquired in the Thome deal. Since Rowand and Garcia can be free agents after the season, it is conceivable that the Phils will have only Castro remaining from the two major deals.

No team has ever stunk so often as the Phillies, who, according to the Elias Sports Bureau, have lost more games than any professional franchise in any sport. The Phillies are 14 losses from a particular threshold of ignominy — the 10,000th defeat for a club that has won one lonely World Series title (in 1980) during its 125 years of often dreadful existence. ... The franchise has set awful records for futility — with a collective earned run average of 6.71 in 1930 and 23 consecutive defeats in 1961. And, of course, 1964 brought one of baseball’s most infamous collapses, when the Phillies held a 6 ½-game lead in the National League with 12 games to play and blew the pennant after losing 10 in a row.

curt -

every single team in baseball has some portion of their starters hurt.

that's baseball.

they still have to play the games. they're still 7-3 in the last 10 games.

this is a good run. hopefully hamels can continue the momentum.

Do NOT move Myers back to the rotation. Sorry... but he is more valuable to the team as a consistent closer than he would be pitching every fifth day where he wasn't as consistent. His stuff is made for the closer role. I also think his injury had more to do with overthrowing than with overwork. He's a horse. When he comes back, he'll have a better understanding of the role and won't likely face the same problem. He's our closer. And he'll make us better.

Finding the fifth starter could be an issue. It's Hamels, Lieber, Moyer, Eaton and ? Is the answer in the minors? We'd get damn lucky if it were. But, really, are we gonna do worse than Garcia?

We're 4 games out in both the division and the wild card despite the horrendous and inconsistent play we've seen from this team. We're a good baseball team and if the starting pitching can settle down at all, we may still be the team to beat in the NL East (thanks J-Roll).

i agree cj - keep myers in the pen.

gotta roll the dice with the 5th starter, but we can't give up the farm.

hell, we're only 4 back, we're in this thing.

with the NY Times filing a story this morning on the 10,000 loss thing, a sportscenter feature is sure to follow.

agree with both CJ and Joe....Myers should stay in the 'pen....we need him back there and that is where I think his future is

I apology if someone commented on this but how is it we did not sign Borowski after lengthy medical evaluations but take Garcia basically sight unseen?

I would like to know more about the details of that trade - what pressure the Phillies were under agree to it immediately and under what terms?

As I do remember the Sox called the Phillies out of the blue to inform them they wanted to move Garcia.

It almost makes you wonder if they realized how terribly they screwed up after the fact on Garcia and became overly selective from then on out.

Someone upstairs need to be accountable for this and it is time for some old style YANKEES philosophy that a statement needs to be made by a firing or termination.

The only problem is those doing the firing/terminating are the culprits.

Rumbles in Houston is that Brad Lidge is on the trade block. Trade for Lidge then put Myers back as a starter.

I am beginning to see a pattern: Get blasted, pitch a shutout, get blasted, pitch a shutout. It does not look good for today's game.


CJ: What evidence is there that Myers will come back from this injury a more mature player with an understanding of pressure situations? He's an immature pitcher who tends to overthrow to compensate... that's his style on the mound. I don't see any reason to believe that he's learned his lesson. Putting him in as closer or relief ace or whatever role he has just gives me more chances to overthrow and injure himself. He's better off in the rotation.

This injury was the obvious outcome of his move to the bullpen. Of course, I didn't have a better idea back then and I still don't. That doesn't stop it from stinking.

Re: Ohka, well, clearly he's nobody's ideal candidate here, and because of the relative importance of this role, that makes him a bad choice for our first Japanese player, to break the unspoken Philadelphia "color barrier." He's too likely to fail, and I don't like the ramifications of that -- and I'm not just talking about the W-L record.

Listening to Paul LaDucca on the 660FAN. In regards to showing up Hamels last week. He said "I could give a Rats a** what he thinks, It's not like he is Roger Clemens or Randy Johnson. This is the same kid who says he should throw a no-hitter each year"

Host then asked LaDucca if that was the case-than why did he get so pissed at Arod last year for flipping his bat? Paul said it was diffrent because the Phills game was a closer game & the Mets had been strugling.
Sorry Paul you can't have it both ways.

Could it possibly be, that, the reason they didn't do an MRI on Garcia BEFORE the trade was finalized, is that management didn't want to spend the money?

Or, is this an organization that really doesn't care how much they spend?

Just a thought.

So, in the course of a week both Lieber and Eaton have become dominant forces on the mound, Garcia is a failure, Burrell is showing (just a few) signs of life and Alfonseca has been "lights out." Is this the Bizarro Phils we're watching here? Should we be excited or very, very nervous?

At least one thing remains certain, Nunez has "returned to the mean" and is his terrible offensive self again. If mgmt is so soured on giving Coste a chance in a platoon, why not Costanzo? At least a role similar to that of Bourne where he can at least see a few innings here and there. Does this make absolutely no sense or is there some upside to Helms that no one has seen yet this year?

AWH, while I'm all for calling out ownership on their lack of spending, MRI's run between $400 and $3000, from what I've been told. I can't see that they skip the MRI for $3000 bucks- they make more than that on hats in an evening.

Because Costanzo ... Can't Standz "O" .... he K's way too much and makes entirely too many errors ... He should be ready ... but just isnt!

nice thread today, J.

El Pupo might be our savior, as f'd up as it is to say that.

And that would mean, they weren't willing to pay up to $3k, but were willing to gamble on $10million. Phils don't make a whole lot of sense, but neither does that.

...thus far at least

dc fan, that's exactly my point.

"Sorry... but [Myers]is more valuable to the team as a consistent closer than he would be pitching every fifth day where he wasn't as consistent."

Last year he made 22 quality starts in 31 starts, including runs of 10 and 6 in a row. That's at least as consistent as any other starter on the team.

"Myers should stay in the 'pen....we need him back there and that is where I think his future is."

Once again, he would be the third-highest-paid reliever in baseball. That argues very strongly against his future being in the bullpen, at least in Philadelphia.

I don't see why we desperately need Myers to take Alfonseca's spot back when Alfonseca is doing well enough as is. Fifth starter, on the other hand, is a dire need. Maybe Kendrick can't be much worse than Garcia, but Myers would be a lot better than Kendrick, and we really need to improve our pitching, a 4.70 team ERA won't get us into the playoffs.

Brian Mazone never saw this coming about. Brian did not see a major league call-up in the cards, so goes for a better paycheck in Korea. If he was still at Ottawa, based on all the other minor league pitching injuries and failures, he would be the best candidate.

AWH and P O'Neil, while I think that this ownership has made some extremely short-sighted moves (be it with personnel or with the stadium) I am extremely doubtful that they would not spend the money.

The lack of information that comes from Citizens Bank Way and Pattison Avenue is appalling and wouldn't be tolerated from any corporation, gives us enough room to ponder countless angels. I think that Gillick et al needs to come clean about this as it is clearly a fire able offense, but even being the cynical Philadelphia sports fan that I am, I can’t see that they sat around a room or called each other and said “Let’s not do an MRI- $3,000 costs too much.”

"he K's way too much and makes entirely too many errors ... He should be ready ... but just isnt!"

Sounds like he fits the job description for playing 3B for the Phils. Maybe we need to re-visit the whole "Nunez's defense vs. Helms' offense" debate. Either way, it's a glaring hole either in the lineup or on the hot corner.

Hell, Phila fan in DC, i'm agreeing with you...

Gillick probably just thought that, because Garcia was with him back in Seattle, there was no way he could be injured or ineffective, so there was no need for a medical exam. All we need to do is just look at Ryan Franklin and Arthur Rhodes to see how well the Seattle East plan is going. But at least its working out better than Toronto South (Nunez - 1994 FA Signing by... Gillick).

Actually, Dave X, it seems Ryan Franklin has benefitted greatly from his time with St. Louis pitching coach Dave Duncan. He's currently sporting a 1.88 ERA in 28 innings, with peripheral stats no better than what he posted here. Rhodes, on the other hand, tore his elbow ligament and is out for the year. Wonder if we performed any MRIs on that while he was here.

gillick probably didn't want any information that would bring about caution for the only "big" offseason deal he had available. they closed their eyes and took a gamble, especially after borowski. "no need to do an MRI, guys, it will just draw too much attention."

there really can't be another reason. why else would you not check on the goods you're about to buy? he didn't want to know, so he avoided being thorough.

he had to know on some level. this is a 30-year front office guy. like this kind of thing has never come up before?

Make all the arguement you want about Myers in the 'pen, but you can't convince me that he is more valuable to the team in relief rather than in the starting rotation where he belongs. Sure, he'll be able to appear in more games and potentially lock down victories, but if he were in the rotation we could expect a quality start every 5th day in his spot. Right now Hamels is the only consistent starter who gives us "quality" starts. Moyer is decent, Lieber has been up and down, and Eaton is well...Eaton. We need another solid starter, because without one we won't need Myers in the 'pen to lock down victories because we'll be losing by then.

WP: Costanzo has been hideously bad in the field and while he's shown some pop with the bat his K/BB ratio is awful. He's very far from being big league ready.

I'm somewhat torn on the Myers-Pen/Starter debate. But, the ultimate goal on a real team, would be for them to get an arm, especially a closer, to handle the job, then send Myers back to starting. No need to dick him around, just send him back to starting once and for all. They've already said he's going back to the 'pen, so that's the way it's going to be, for now.

Is there any poster on here who's willing to say that a bullpen with Alfonseca as closer and Geary/Madson as setup men is a playoff-caliber bullpen?

Hate to do it but the Phils might have to trade a minor prospect to fill the 5th starter spot. I hate rushing Kendrick and throwing him into the meat grinder - especially given the fact that he has been on a nice developmental path the past year or so.

Ideally Kendrick would have spent almost the entire year in Reading and maybe been a late season callup when the roster expanded in Sept. Instead Gillick screwed up again and he has to dip into the low minor leagues to find a starter for the big league club.

Phils might be able to pry lose Okha but I don't that the Orioles will give up Traschel for less than a mid-tier prospect. Traschel has actually pitched pretty well for the O's this year and if the O's are smart they will sucker some team at the trade deadline desperate for a 4th or 5th starter.

Clout - No but Alfonseca has shown that he can be effective if he doesn't pitch on consecutive days. That has absolutely shocked me but Alfonseca's peripheal numbers (BAA and WHIP) indicate that Alfonseca has been a little lucky too. His ERA should probably be around 4.50 or so.

I also agree with you about Madson/Geary as setup guys. Neither is cut-out for the role but for different reasons. As for Madson, I still think it is more of a mental thing with him than a talent standpoint. Geary just doesn't have the stuff and ideally would be a back-end bullpen guy.

Alfonseca closing isn't playoff-caliber, but our pitching staff won't be playoff-caliber with Myers closing and Kendrick starting either. Obviously our pitching's far from playoff-caliber, we're the 5th or 6th worst pitching team in baseball. The only way to fix it is to start Myers and trade for a Lidge or Gagne, thereby backing everyone else up to roles actually suited for them.

Re: Kells' post about LoDuca:

Paul LoDuca is an a**hole. I really hope he gets a fast ball right in his throat in his first at bat on the 29th. If it's the bottom of the 9th and you hit a walk-off HR, flip the bat, pump your fist, throw your helmet off, etc., but NOT in the 6th inning of a game that the pitcher (prior to the previous 2 batters) had been dominating.

Re: Myers

I still think that, at this point, he needs to be in the 'pen. If Lieber and Eaton continue to pitch as well as they have been, we have four quality starters. It would be nice to have a healthy Mathieson at this point because he at least has a few big league games under his belt, but we don't have that luxury. Give Kendrick a shot and see what develops.

DC fan, WE AGREE. I was being somewhat sarcastic.

I, too, would find it hard to believe they nixed the MRI because of the cost - that would have been ridiculously cheap, and foolish.

Then again, they didn't get the MRI on Freddy. So I guess we can eliminate the "ridiculously cheap" part of my previous statement.

Unless you or anyone else can come up with a *logical* reason they didn't require one.

So you are saying they didn't require an MRI b/c they're cheap?

Kenny williams said "You have two minutes to give me your decision..." and he knew Gillick would say yes...then he goes out and restocks his minor leagues with pitching prospects...oh yeah, he also has an owner who wants to win.

Jerry Reinsdorf on winning a WS in 05 vs. six championships with the bulls " I'd give them all up in a second to get this world series".

I want Kenny Williams. The sox playing they way they are isn't his fault. All in all, he's 10 times the GM we have.

Tray: I'm not sold on which way to go with Myers but I do know this: They cannot make the playoffs without adding either a starter or a reliever at the Lidge/Gagne/Linebrink level. If could get the latter, obviously putting Myers into the rotation makes sense.

Looks like we all agree. Strangely, my sarcasm meter's out of wack today. Which disturbs me...

My two questions are for Freddy and whomever examined him in March/April. Freddy- you've told Charlie on Friday night that you weren't hurt. You complained earlier in the season when he pulled you. Do you honestly not believe that you have a problem? And to the docs, when you were looking at his right bicep, did you check out anything else? If so, did you notice "some pathology" of the labrum and "fraying" of the rotator cuff? If not, why were you just focusing on his bicep and not the whole pitching arm/shoulder?

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