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Friday, June 22, 2007

Comments

Phils take 2 of 3.

A couple comments on the prior thread:
Alby I agree with you 100% that Bourn will bring more in a trade than Rowand, for the reasons you stated. I don't think you need to worry about him being another Jeff Stone, however. Unlike Stoney, Bourn's minor league stats show strike-zone judgment. Stoney wouldn't know the difference between a ball and strike if you showed him a picture.

Bourn's biggest flaw is an utter lack of power. We're talking Luis Castillo/Juan Pierre/Jason Tyner lack of power. But his OB skills, speed and glove guarantee him a job as a 4th outfielder and if he can hit .285-.300 he will be an everyday player and leadoff hitter.

ae: I'm not jumping all over you for your Mesa comments because, hey, you could be right. And the Phillies bullpen sucks so bad, I'd be willing to try anyone out there. I think the odds are against Mesa being helpful, however. I bet they make Mesa and Alfonseca sit on opposite sides of the team plane (Howard and Lieber too).

Curt: Sorry, but your assertion that "we are not a playoff team this year" is not rational. We're two games out of first place. We have played at a higher winning percentage than either of the teams ahead of us since the third week of the season. Despite having too many marginal players and a weak manager, Myers and Gordon are still expected back. In the long run of this season, I'm more worried about the starting pitching than the bullpen. It's one thing to express pessimism; it's another to declare with certainty that "we're not a playoff team." But I must ask this: Doesn't insisting that we're not a playoff team lead to the conclusion that we should sell off parts like Rowand?

After the two rough series against the Tigers and the Indians, it is nice to have an off-day, then a series against the Cards another off-day and then a home series against the Reds. I think we need to take four of the next six, which seems enitrely do-able against these teams. It is imperative to take tonight's game especially. Moyer will keep us in the game and we should be able to score some runs off of Reyes, who seems to be having a horrific year. I would be nice gain a game on the Mets before the upcoming series.

Clout: So does your generally positive assessment mean you think Gillick should keep Bourn, or trade him? A lot of teams -- this one included -- would love to have a Juan Pierre type.

Cards matchups.
Tonite: Moyer vs. Reyes. Reyes is a superb prospect who has had horrible command problems in the majors. Who knows when or if it will finally click on? If Moyer can avoid pitching to Pujols or Rolen with men on base, I like his chances.

Tomorrow afternoon: Eaton vs. Wainwright. Eaton is a model of inconsistency (a mature version of Reyes). If his command is there, he wins. Wainwright is another great young arm, but he has problems with lefties. Slight edge to Eaton.

Sunday afternoon: Hamels vs. Kip Wells. This one is a no-brainer. Wells is horrendous and wouldn't be pitching except that 3/5ths of the Cardinals rotation is on the D.L. Huge edge to Hamels.

Alby: It depends on who we could get for him. I honestly don't know where things stand on that front. Are Myers and Gordon coming back soon and healthy? If yes, then we need a starter to replace Garcia. If no, then we need a stud bullpen arm. I do know this: If the Phillies don't add another pitcher, they won't make the playoffs.

I'm not as negative as curt, who thinks the team can't make the playoffs no matter what, but I'm more realistic than SirAlden & mike cunningham, who think the team has a playoff caliber pitching staff as is.

In the last thread, clout asked: "Do you this the Phillies have a playoff-caliber bullpen?"

We could. Once Myers gets back from injury, especially, and if we can get anything out of Gordon. And how good does the bullpen have to be to be "playoff caliber" and what do you use to measure it?

St. Louis won the World Series last year and they did it with the 14th lowest bullpen ERA. Florida was 19th in 2003 when they beat the Yankees. The Yankees were 19th in 2000 when they beat the Mets. The Phils are 26th now... which is better than the were a month ago. And we stand to get better when our best arms return from the DL.

Is the bullpen a problem? Sure it is. Is it worth "solving" that problem by dealing Aaron Rowand away? No. That's not even close. Who are we going to get? Brad Lidge? Mike McDougle? Are you kidding me?

Someone tell me how we solve our bullpen problems by dealing our most productive outfielder.

This team has a .576 winning percentage over the past 59 games.

I ask you, clout, is a .576 winning percentage not playoff caliber?

Well, some teams GMs are able to acquire decent pitching:

Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports reports that the Tigers have traded Mike Maroth to the Cardinals for an as yet undisclosed return.

CJ: Is 59 games a season? I always thought it was 162. Do you think this team will play .576 ball the rest of the way? Did they play .576 ball in April? If so, please explain, while noting who replaces Garcia, Myers and Gordon. Thanks in advance.

P.S. In my humble opinion this is a .519 team. Is a .519 winning percentage playoff caliber?

Clout: Good answer, as usual. I'm leaning towards trying to get a starter for Bourn -- I'd want someone more dependable than Maroth, but I'm not sure how reasonable an expectation that is. I also realize I'm saying that without knowing the extent of Myers' injury. If it's truly nothing serious, and we can put him back in the rotation this year or next, then a Cordero type would be a smart move. But Myers is a huge question mark. Did you see the news about Anibel Sanchez getting shoulder surgery? The salient point was that, for all the MRIs they took, nobody realized the damage until he had exploratory surgery.

Looking at the series and one would think the Phils are favored to take at least 2 outta 3, and they better. Anthony Reyes has ZERO wins on the season and 8 losses (pitching tonight). Kip Wells has only 3 wins on the season and a whopping 11 losses...they better beat up on each of these fools.

"Doesn't insisting that we're not a playoff team lead to the conclusion that we should sell off parts like Rowand?"

Normally, yes. But 3 things make me hesitate: 1) Gillick's record in this department is so bad, we might be better off with a compensatory pick, 2) with the decay of the White Sox and all the FA CFs out there, we should have a shot at resigning the guy, and 3) we really have little else to "sell off," so its not like the team can be transformed into a contender next year.

Reyes has struggled this year for the Cards, and Moyer is coming off a fine outing against a strong Tigers lineup. Moyer has had good success against most of the Cards lineup including Pujols (hitless in 5 ABs). Love the Phils chances tonight.

clout -- if Myers were still in the rotation I'd still fantasize some about the playoffs. But he's made it pretty clear that's not going to happen.

You can demand a trade for another pitcher all you want, but you have to be able to give something to get something. Who do we trade that brings us a pitcher that carries us to the playoffs?

Curt: I don't think they'd get any more for Rowand now than they might at the Aug. 31 playoff deadline; if they're in a hopeless position then, he could fetch a grade B/C prospect. Might as well keep him til them, IMHO.

But, while I'd normally agree that this is "not a playoff team," the mediocrity of the rest of the league argues otherwise. Clout points out that a .519 team isn't likely to make the playoffs, 86 wins equals a .531 winning percentage; that might do it, and that seems achievable even without much improvement. Would you really rather throw in the towel than try to finally get over the playoff hump? It's not as if trading Bourn would be the equivalent of mortgaging the team's future.

Who cares whether or not Rowand will sign with the Phils next year? We're two games out of first and we absolutely need him now. Will some mediocre middle-reliever really make up for the hole he would leave in our lineup?
A bunch of statheads here are going overboard with the whole "regression to the mean" thing--Rowand is in the middle of a great year. There's no reason to assume that the second half of this season will def. be a slump. After that, like I said, who cares. We're still chasing a pennant.

Alby - Sorry, I've never seen a poorly managed team with just 5 everyday players, maybe 3 starters, and no BP, win anything. Maybe if it were LaRussa & not Manuel, and the NL Central & not the East (because you know the Mets will be adding frontline players), I'd keep hope alive.

That's just silly. There's not a GM in baseball who would take that approach.

On the question whether this Phillies team can make the playoffs, I think you have to separate your visceral feelings from the mathematical reality. My own visceral feeling is that they are not a playoff team. I base this feeling on years of watching this team, & on the fact that I'm still seeing the same problems & patterns this year as in every other recent year. Nonetheless, the mathematical reality says that they are only 2 games out of the division lead & only 3 or 4 games out of the WC.

Visceral feelings are unquantifiable and subjective, whereas math is measurable & objective. So, regardless of what Pat Gillick or I think is probably going to happen, they can't give up on a season when they're still right in the thick of a playoff race. Trading Rowand would be giving up on the season, because there's no way they could replace his offense.

And please don't bring up hypothetical scenarios where we trade Rowand for Zambrano, Buehrle, Johann Santana, or Roy Oswalt. Let's deal in reality. Rowand might net us a couple of prospects or a good reliever. The prospects won't help the Phillies' cause in 2007 & the reliever is going to be of considerably less value to the Phillies than an everyday player who is hitting over .300 & knocking in lots of runs. The inescapable conclusion is that, unless the Phillies fall out of contention by July 31, they can't trade Rowand.

Right, BAP, and we shouldn't really be discussing him. The guy who's on the trading block is Michael Bourn. That's the question -- should we trade him or not?

Bourn's the guy to go, as someone noted earlier. Unless Rowand's part of a bigger deal, commenters are right about Rowand's offense can't be taken out, unless something else is put in.

I mentioned in the last thread that the Phillies had indicated in Wednesday's paper that Tom Gordon was ahead of Brett Myers in rehab.
This after it was announced that Myers would be back from the DL on Monday, 6/18.
Myers had earlier stated that it would take him ~1 month to be in the correct shape for pitching as a starter.
There has been no definitive announcement on the severity of Myers' injury.
Could they be holding Myers back for a possible return to the rotation?

This is an excellent thread. It's good that the consensus has (logically enough) established Bourn and not Rowand as the should-they-or-shouldn't-they trading chip; Alby's reasoning of why Bourn would net more than Rowand is spot on.

BAP also nailed it with his visceral vs. objective analysis on whether the Phillies are a playoff team. True, one has to assume that since they technically have a chance, that they *do* have the chance. But most of us know better to just take that at face value. This isn't a playoff team.

Let's say Bourn and perhaps another mid-range prospect can get the Phillies Mark Buerhle. Would you make that trade? The White Sox have needed another CF since the day they traded Rowand, and in that division they may be looking to re-tool for the future. Bourn, as noted, is probably ready to play every day for a team with diminished expectations, and will be cheap for a good long while. It may come down to intent. *If* the Phillies are convinced they both want to and can re-sign Rowand, Bourn becomes considerably more expendable. Someone earlier said, who cares now if Rowand re-signs or not, but this situation is essential in determining what the Phillies may be able to acquire to help the team's chances *this year*. It is fodder for good debate. I would rather see them keep Bourn, but I'll admit it's a somewhat conservative stance that's based mostly on the fact that I'd rather see this franchise focus on the future rather than trying to make these desperate (and likely futile) playoff runs, which in the end only serve to set the organization further back. But it would be hard for me or anyone to fault Gillick if he went for it and really found a way to improve the team, and I do recognize that Bourn is about the only way he could do it.

Concerning this series: beware. If the Phillies could lose 2 of 3 in the other Missouri city, they could just as easily do it in St. Louis.

I'll add that the contingency of the Phils' intent to go after Rowand is even more essentila when you consider that if they *don't* re-sign him, the team will then need both a CF and a LF (not to mention 3B). They may not release Burrell, but I strongly doubt they would see fit to start another season with him as an everyday player. The only options to acquire players will continue to be through free agency, and it's impossible to imagine that this spendthrift franchise will shell out for quality - if there is even quality to be had on the market - at more than one of those three potentially vacant positions, much less the pitching staff. If they trade Bourn, they HAVE to bring Rowand back, and there cannot be a shred of doubt about it. On the other hand, if they lose Rowand, you plug in Bourn and fill the other needs perhaps more capably.

Phils should win 2 of 3 with a very good chance at a sweep. Remember, we normally play well in STL. (We're 11-4 there since 2002.)

Alby: Ok, end of Aaron Rowand trade discussions. I just wanted to throw it out there & refute it because, not a day passes by without someone on this board saying that we have to trade Rowand.

Trading Bourn would be a really tough call. If all we get in return is a 2-month rental, I think I'd have to vote no. For all the criticism of Bourn's offense, he has managed to hit .275 in his limited play this year. He's been a fairly consistent .280 hitter in the minors & has also demonstrated an ability to draw walks. Given his prodigious base-stealing ability, a walk is almost like a double. I think they've got to hold on to him. I'd be more inclined to trade Kyle Drabek or some of their pitching prospects not named Carrasco. I don't know if that kind of package would get you Buehrle, but it should be able to get them some significant bullpen help.

I can't believe what I'm reading here...

You guys have given up on the season? We're two games out of first place with a .576 winning percentage over our last 59 games and we're giving up on the season?

I don't even know what to say...

And I thought Eagles fans were unnaturally pessimistic. They've got nothing on this gloomy bunch.

If you go after a guy like Buerhle, which would be nice, you gotta talk contract right away.

.519 winning percentage times 162 games is 84 wins.

Number of wins by the 2006 World Champion St. Louis Cardinals = 82.

I'm just sayin...

Right now as the standings look, we only have a shot at getting to the playoffs by winning the NL East. Milwaukee pretty much has the NL Central, and the NL Wild Card certainly isn't coming from there. The NL West is a powerhouse though with the Dodgers, Padres, and Diamondbacks well over .500 and even the Rockies are 4 games above .500, so my guess is the wild card comes from that division. Like I've said before, the reason I'm down on this team right now is because their pissing away a perfect opportunity to catch and overtake the Mets while they're down. Pedro is coming back, Alou will come back at sometime, and Minyana is sure to make some good trades unlike our GM Gillick. So CJ, you're right, they have played much better ball since the abysmal start, but they've kind of went in neutral over the past couple weeks not really gaining or losing ground, and this is the time where we need to make the move because if we wait too long then we'll once again be falling about 3 games short.

OK, so it was 83.

Just thought I'd point out this article on the Phils' farm system in case anyone missed it.

The Wild Card will go west??? Really?

We're a whopping 4 games out in the loss column of the Wild Card with more than a half season left to play.

Where are these absolute declarations coming from? They are just plain WRONG.

Does it mean we WILL win the Wild Card? Of course not. But if we continue to win at the rate we've won over the past two months, we can be a playoff team. No question. And anyone who denies it is just plain wrong.

As Mike H. pointed out. Last year's World Series Champion won a whopping 83 games.

And you guys are giving up on the season after just 72 games? What a damn shame.

Carrasco pitched well in his first Reading outing. I can't wait to see more of D'Arby Myers. Dominic Brown that's mentioned turned down a scholarship at U. of Miami, where he was set to play WR (6ft 5).

We don't really know what we have in Bourn, and Cholly doesn't seem too eager to find out. I'd love to see him play this whole weekend in the 8 hole

CJ, put a lid on it. No one is giving up. Most of us are realistic enough to doubt that these Phillies have what it takes to be a bonafide playoff team. After a decade and a half of also-rans, we know one when we see one. But doubt isn't the same as saying they have no chance. Of course they have a chance. Hallelujah.

Speaking of D'Arby Myers, does anyone know why such a promising prospect is playing on a short season team for the 2nd year in a row, rather than being sent to Lakewood where he could get a full season of additional experience? What has he been doing for the last 2 1/2 months while all our other prospects got a half season worth of real-game experience?

I'm not implying a criticism here. I'm just asking. There may well be a reasonable explanation, like he was playing in some league somewhere else. However, if he was just sitting at home on his couch for the last 2 1/2 months, that would strike me as very odd.

I think the disagreements we're having are over how "bona fide" the team's playoff prospects are. Even with another pitcher, this is a highly flawed team, one I can't see advancing to the World Series. But speaking for the over-50 crowd, I'll take a crummy playoff appearance over none at all. If they sneak in this year, it arguably isn't bona fide. So what? As long as true prospects like Carrasco aren't traded, just future role players like Bourn, I can live with sneaking in.

"I'll take a crummy playoff appearance over none at all." I'm not over 50, but I've suffered long enough in my own right. And I don't agree with this sentiment. The whole "Cardinals 83-wins" argument to me is a weak justification for making an already bleak future even bleaker. I would rather see the lugnuts who run this team try to orchestrate a long-range plan which would ultimately turn them into a sustaining force in the league, rather than these repeated, ungraceful stabs at Division Series "glory". The philosophy you endorse, Alby, is the one the Phillies themselves have been clinging to over the past handful of seasons and in my view, it's part of the problem here. I mean, yes, they're two games out, and we're all dying for the playoffs. But to what avail?

RSB -- you want a long range plan? Other than a marketing plan? Start rooting for a new team, my man.

CJ: Are you a baseball fan? If you are, you probably follow teams other than the Phillies. You probably have a pretty good sense of how much talent they have. Thus you'd realize only an idiot would say the Phillies have more talent than the Dodgers, D'backs and Padres.

That doesn't mean they can't win. Injuries and trades can change a team's chances overnight. But evaluating it strictly on the basis of talent, a reasonably knowledgable baseball fan would conclude that for the Phillies to make the playoffs this year, they'll have to win the division.

Yeah, I know. Well, it's all hypothetical. I suppose a cheap Padres-type playoff appearance is the very best we can hope for in the rest of the decade.

CJ: One other thought. How often does a team that wins 83 games go to the World Series?

Sustaining forces, or baseball dynasties, are a thing of the past, RSB. Baseball now has free agency on the player end, shorter less-risky contracts on the owner end, and a silent approval by the League toward parity (at least in the NL). Walt Jockety doesn't think he has a bleak future with his team.

This team, like Alby said, is still too flawed in the pitching department. It has been for years. That's not philosophy or strategy - it's execution.

Are you guys crazy?

Can someone, anyone, find me a team in the National League that has scored more runs this year than the Philadelphia Philles?

Anyone?

And they don't have enough talent to make the playoffs? They're not better than an 83 win team? Do I care how often an 83 win team makes the playoffs?

What I know is that despite a terrible, god awful start to the season and injuries to Brett Myers, Freddie Garcia, Tom Gordon and Ryan Howard, this team is just two games out of the division lead and just four games out in the loss column for the wild card.

Yet too many people on this list want to scuttle the season for a "long range plan." F%$@ that. There are plenty of long range plans that produce absolutely squat. Get into the playoffs. That's the only thing that gives you a chance to win it all. And every year you're close, you have to do whatever it takes to get there.

Whatever it takes does not include dealing Aaron Rowand for a cheap arm or a prospect just because we're going to lose him as a free agent anyway. That's the white flag method of managing and it may have cost us a playoff spot last year, too.

Is that what we want again?

This decade is all about parity in the NL. There are only 4 teams that haven't either been in the playoffs or come real close since 2000. Milwaukee (who look like they will make it this year), Expos/Nats, Pittsburgh, and Colorado. Why have a long range plan when a few moves, a decent farm system, consistent play, and some good luck can get into the dance?

I didn't say 'dynasty'. Let's shoot for stability. You may have noticed, some organizations remain more stable regardless of the changes in personnel over the years. The groundwork for that is a farm system. The more the Phillies keep giving away in order to join the stumblebum wild-card parade, the farther behind they fall. It's as if there's no connection here between they way they operate and the identical predicaments they find themselves in every year. The new playoff format tempts and beckons to the weaker organizations; get close, and all bets are off. Forget prospects, hey, they might *never* pan out, let's get this 50 year old starter, let's get this reliever who was an all-star in 1998. The stronger teams hold firm to a foundation and think beyond the immediate circumstances. The way to win is not sloppily constructing a roster and impulsively trying to fill in the missing pieces in July. And if you all are endorsing that the Phillies should keep sticking to this format, you're really no better than the short-sighted clods in the front office.

Honestly, I have more respect for the way the Phillies were being run in the late '90s than the way they are being run now. It didn't amount to anything, but at least they were willing to suck up a few lean years for the sake of attempting to restoring a foundation to the franchise. But what's going on now is all about the new ballpark, and not wanting to kill the momentum. There isn't even the pretense of a plan. The team was built to 'win now' with Thome/Burrell/Abreu; it didn't win. The front office pretends that the 'now' has extended well past Thome's departure, and the only one who had an inkling that it was a lost cause was Pat Gillick on the day he traded Bobby Abreu. But since that day, the Phils climbed back into the playoff race and Gillick has seemed lost in space, caught between directions; no one seems to know whether the hell this team is coming or going, but I say it's going. This team reminds me of the mid-'80s Phillies, which were constricted around a dubious 'core' of Schmidt/Samuel/Hayes; the farm system kept disintegrating further every year, but blindly they plodded on, making trades in hopes of winning the next year, and the next year, and then in '88 it all caved in. That crash is coming here, too, without a doubt. If it isn't next year, it'll be the one after.

That's all that's left to do. Pick up the dregs that have been released by other teams. I'm shocked they haven't run after Roberto Hernandez with wreaths of flowers.

he is a lefty..so i think it is worth a chance.

Yeah, actually...I have to admit, I think that's a decent move. He'll help more than Mesa, that's for damn sure.

So, again, I ask... how does trading away Rowand help us develop a more "stable" franchise, whatever the hell that means.

The only reason to trade the guy would be for bullpen help... and that weakens us considerably in another area so it doesn't help us win now and it doesn't help us win in the future.

Trading Rowand waves the white flag. In the middle of a season in which the Phillies could win the division, waving the white flag is a disgrace. That anyone is advocating that for the sake of "stability" makes me wonder. Baseball is about winning. For a city that has gone so long without success it's crazy to suggest a team this close should dump it's "valuable" commodities to re-stock its farm system.

Sorry, that's stupid. It's just plain stupid.

A stable franchise means you're not grasping at straws like Jose Mesa.

I don't think Romero as bad as you all are letting on - he was the odd man out of arguably the best bullpen in the majors.

CJ, while you're busy squawking and flapping your arms, no one's talking about trading Rowand but you.

Watching the St. Louis telecast. Joe Buck cannot shut his trap for more than a tenth of a second.

With the volume of trash they have brought into this bullpen - one or two of these guys should turn out serviceable.

Moyer's something. I kept thinking he'd come inside with at least one pitch to Rolen, and he never did.

It probably makes sense to take a flyer on any pitcher cut by Boston. I suspect their AAA relievers are more talented than our BP.

How come Boston let him go or is it a trade?

Romero was Designated for Assignment.
As for tonight, why do I get the feeling we see Reyes's best effort of the year?

Probably because Reyes is in the minors if he doesn't pitch well.

Moyer put the Lark Scooter into overdrive!

Jamie Moyer is my friggin' idol.

While I agree with CJ that the team should try to win this year, I'd also like to say he's the least informed, least knowledgable (about baseball anyway) poster on this board in a long time. But he's a fine Phillies fan. So welcome aboard CJ. I suggest boning up on baseball, however, as most of the posters here know quite a bit about it.

RSB, your comment about the 1980s and Bill Giles core of what he called superb young talent (Steve Jeltz, Rick Shue, Jeff Stone, John Russell, Charlie Hudson) under the leadership of John Felske made me laugh out loud. I sure hope we don't go back to those days. Has there ever been a greater misjudgment of talent in baseball history?

Oh, and Juan Samuel, of course. Great athlete, so-so ballplayer.

Like the way the Phils took advantage of the opportunity the Cards gave them.

Clout, Conlin had a great line to describe this group in his colum today: Bill Giles' Cocktail Napkin All-Stars.

Meanwhile, the Phils are really taking care of business here against Reyes.

That Utley AB was the game.

Taking care of business because Chase Utley is God.

Like Stark said: "He'll rip your heart out to win the game."

Guess I spoke too soon about this being Reyes's best start of the year.

Was there any doubt Utley was going to get a hit after fouling off ten pitches? He is locked in.

Ruiz's swing reminds me too much of Barajas.

Clout, how about the same genius who deemed Gregg Jefferies a better free agent than Larry Walker because Jefferies was a more marketable player?

After the last 2 series, this feels like a JV game.

Just when you thought they might put it away, they score zero after having the bases loaded with one out.
Tough to feel like this really is a playoff team when you wake from the dream 2 innings later.

why not gamble and instead of hoping for maybe a sac fly or a single send utley home it's not like your down by 1 or 2 runs,your up 5-0 , so howard's ball was hit a liitle hard to c.f probably would have taken a perfect throw to get him out it's not like utley sucks on the bases,oh yeah smith is our great 3rd base coach!

It's nothing compared to the way St. Louis is leaving runners on tonight.

bsg, it's 5-0 you're upset Utley didn't score from first on a single?

They added one with a runner on 3rd and 1 out...I can start dreaming again.

Well that was a pretty run. So easy, but so hard for this team. Moyer hasn't hit for 15 years, but he knows how to get a bunt down.

you have one of the best base runners in baseball, if the game is a little closer i understand holding him up, but 5-0 lead is good not great and i think thats a good place to gamble send him home, IMO

Good thing we got that 6th run - Mad Dog's "warming".

Boston had Mike Timlin coming back off the DL. Romero was not going back to Pawtucket, I believe.

Franzke said Utley is now 10 for 20 in this stadium.

Madson warming up.

Utley was on *first base*. Howard hit a single. You want him to score. I can tell you've watched a lot of baseball.

Moyer = HOF :)

This is payback for John Tudor doing the exact same thing to the Phillies for years.

We're definitely not in Cleveland any more, Toto.

Madson would have given up at least two runs if he came in with none out.

wheeee....

gotta be fun to see a 93 mph fastball after dealing with moyer's cheese all night.

Am I wrong for wondering why one of our better back end relievers is pitching in a 6-run game and hitting at that?

madson looked like mad dog there.

bronco for the 9th?

Cholly didn't trust anyone left out there. Maybe with just 3 outs left he'll trust his new fav Jose.

I guess I'll have to understand. I just hope Madson isn't burnt tomorrow night if we need him. I mean, I guess I rather would've wanted to see Geary here.

Easiest win of the year? The Cardinals are the deadest team I've seen in awhile.

the reds are worse.

this definitely aint the tigers or indians.

I wish the Reds were worse; that way I wouldn't feel so glum about starting Ryan Freierierererereband. Damnit.

Still, maybe the easiest win. Phils should sweep the pants off these guys.

Just read this off the AP wire
"The Phillies are 9-1 when Moyer starts after a loss"
Moyer isn't an ace-but this is what gamers do-end losing streaks.
I think Madson is a huge key to the remainder of the season. I know we have the 2nd worst ERA in the NL-but a healthy bullpen of Geary/Madson/Gordon(BIG IF) & Myers would be huge.
I would like to see Cholly get Bourne some late inning at bats(besides just defense) in games like this. I know it's nitpicking w/ a 6-0 lead w/ 1 out but why not pitch hit for Dobbs when Larussa brought in a lefty.We had Burrell available & it would have been a huge boost to his confidence.
Considering our bullpen recently a 6-0 lead isn't much. Looking back this truely was a JV game. Detroit & Cleveland have nasty offenses. We need to sweep these guys.

Random note to Tony Larussa:
Take your glasses off-it's a night game you A-Hole. After watching the HBO Real Sports interview on him he truely is a jerk. Way to ignore your children from your first marriage genius!

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