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Thursday, June 28, 2007


A poster made a point in the last thread that the goal for this year's Phillies team is "to make the playoffs".
IMO, this is an unacceptable goal.
The goal should be to win a world championship every season.
We, as fans, should not allow this team to sell itself short every single year.
But, we do.

To follow up on my list from the last thread, I used Clout's criteria: Guys who changed teams or were available as FAs. Soriano changed teams, as did Mike Gonzalez. So it wasn't a "reach" to include them on this list.

I think Clout's original point -- which I would second -- was that there were plenty of good relievers who were available, either through trade or free agency. It's beside the point, not to mention speculative, to debate whether or not we had the ability to acquire any particular player from the list. The point is: we certainly had the ability to acquire SOME of the players on the list.

I dunno, part of me thinks back to all the years when the idea of any kind of 'big game' even at the end of June would be fodder for a belly laugh in Philadelphia. With the lackeys running this show, I'm thankful to even have a team in the running. I've long since resigned myself to deferring that elusive World Championship to when I'm 96 and the feature writers from the local papers write about how tears flow down my toothless, pruned face and I rasp that I can go to the grave happy.

Your suggestion that its "unacceptable" to only make the playoffs after a 13 year drought is ridiculous.
Gotta walk before you can run...

RSB: Hilarious.

To have a goal of making the playoffs is the same as having the goal of winning $5 at the casino.
It's nice, and better than what you had, but it's also selling yourself short.

Eaton's a little (tiny bit) better than his numbers indicate, but he was still a tremendous waste of money, which many people here and elsewhere saw from the start.

Baseball isn't like hockey/basketball were 1/2 the teams make the playoffs.

Timr: One other point: how many times did the Angels, Marlins, Diamondbacks and White Sox make the playoffs in recent years before their respective World Titles?

This is kind of a pointless debate. Does it make any difference whether the team defines its goal as trying to make the playoffs or trying to win the whole thing? The personnel decisions you would make if you're trying to make the playoffs are exactly the same as the ones you'd make if you were trying to win the World Series.

Aspiring to make the playoffs is a perfectly acceptable goal because, once you get there, absolutely anything can happen. The only caveat is that you do improve your chances by having a strong starting rotation. But that is just as true during the regular season.

The Marlins have been in the league 100+less years than the Phillies and they have 2 WS already.

Does anyone on here really think that, if the Phillies get to the playoffs, they will win the World Series?
If you set your goal to win the World Series, and make decisions accordingly, all other things (including playoffs) fall into place.

My goal is to make love to a supermodel. I've bought great outfit, got a good haircut and hang out in nice clubs, yet it's not happening...

P O'Neil: Your goal should be to make a lot of money - then the supermodel will fall into place.

RSB, when you are 96, the average life expectancy will be 110. You will promptly have to wait 15 more years for your interview. Which means the Phils will only have won their second title in close to 200 years.

And yes, BAP... anything and everything does happen. In the last 25 years, we've had Darrell Porter, Don Denkinger, an earthquake, Wild Thing, Edgar Renteria and Jose Mesa, and Mariano Rivera in his ultra-prime melt down in the 7th game.

if the phils get to the playoffs, they'll be as bad off as the cards were last year.

short series can bounce either way.

and, pitchers could get the yips on throwing routie outs to first and third.

This Twins also have I believe more WS championships than the Phils. The biggest problem I have is that our last 2 GM's made wrong moves in the wrong areas. Wade traded away plenty of minor-league talent making bad trades and signing guys to long-term contracts that strangle the club. Now when Wade signed Abreu, Burrell and brought in Thome and Bell he was hoping to build a strong team for a number of years.

Now we've all seen what Gillick has done (or not done) and really no phan is happy with that. I referred to Nixon and Huff in the previous thread as guys that Gillick could have brought here but didn't. Instead he signs a guy like K. Garcia. Borowski should be here etc.

Now, I've been around long enough to know that there is a time to give the young kids down on the farm a shot. So be it now. But Gillick made a statement to the effect that he can't aquire a pitcher because too many teams are still in the running and won't give up pitching. That statement is ludicrous. What he meant was teams won't give up pitching for the price the Phils are willing to pay.

The Cards got Moroth. You can bet the Mets will make a deal at the deadline. This is also not to say that only the Phils make bad deals. Atlanta traded a 32 HR guy (La Roache) for Mike Gonzalez. The Pirates turned down Lieber for Gonzalez straight-up. Can't blame them there. But Gonzalez is out for the year. How happpy are the Braves now?

If Nixon were brought in, some would approve
some wouldn't. Would we have been happy with Huff? Damn right. But Gillick can't or won't spend $$. But unless he does something, how does the team make the playoffs? Answer? It doesn't. That's his fault no one else's. I for one, do not want to hear the same BS from the front-office of this team anymore. I would rather the team make the playoffs, than not.

RSB, there is hope for you. The Phils made the WS four times last Century, so they should (as clout says) play to their averages and make a WS appearance by 2025, within the next 19 years. The championship part only occurs once in a century, so you may be out of luck there. You may need medical science to dramatically extend our life expectancies.

"But Gillick made a statement to the effect that he can't aquire a pitcher because too many teams are still in the running and won't give up pitching. That statement is ludicrous. What he meant was teams won't give up pitching for the price the Phils are willing to pay."

What pitcher can we get with what we have to offer? I think it's already been reported that Marlins laughed at us regarding Willis, Buerhle seems to be staying put, Garland's not on the market. What do we have to give up for Zambrano? Nothing. PG's statement isn't ludicrous. There are probably middle-of-the-road at best types available, that right now before the deadline, you'll have to overpay for. Do you want to?

Mike H: Okay then, when I'm 106. Either way, Mesa will probably still be pitching.

You're younger than Jose Mesa? Oh wait... we ALL are...

While Eaton's overall performance has been disappointing, it is amazing how much Eaton's performance has fluctuated from start to start this season.

Looks like an ace one start and gets shelled the next. Can't even really get into a good groove of 2-3 starts. Must be interesting though for the oddmakers who try to set the money line on a night Eaton starts.

BAP: Thanks for doing my homework for me. I actually made a list and posted some of it awhile back but didn't keep it. SirAlden wouldn't learn from it anyway since he thinks Pat Gillick is the "savior of the franchise."

I want to repeat D.Patrone's quote here, because it is flat out true: "But unless he (Gillick) does something, how does the team make the playoffs? Answer? It doesn't."

On the prior thread a poster named "joel" was talking about how fantastic J.D. Durbin is. Here is what Durbin is: A former highly touted prospect plagued by injuries that have had an impact on both his fastball and his K/BB ratio. He is 24 years old and walked 50 batters in 89 AAA IP last season. He was better this season at Ottawa, but while Joel called his minor league numbers impressive, his Ottawa line of 2-4 with a 4.55 ERA (and 67 hits in 59 IP) doesn't impress me much. He's up because the alternatives (except maybe Maloney) are far worse.

MG: You have described Eaton to a T and he's been that way his whole career. He has marvelous, marvelous stuff and command that comes and goes on a whim. You never know if he's going have it with him from one start to the next. He is probably what Rosario would become if he ever got any command at all.

What's so marvelous about Eaton's stuff? It looks pretty ordinary to me.

RSB: Then you haven't been watching. he throws a 93 mph fastball with movement and has a hard curve, slider and change also with good movement. His problem is command: throwing them in the right spots. Some days he does, some days he can't. When he can't he is very hittable. Pitching is like real estate: Location, location, location.


1. J Rollins, SS
2. S Victorino, RF
3. C Utley, 2B
4. R Howard, 1B
5. A Rowand, CF
6. G Dobbs, LF
7. W Helms, 3B
8. C Ruiz, C
9. A Eaton, P

1. S Hatteberg, 1B
2. B Phillips, 2B
3. K Griffey Jr., RF
4. A Dunn, LF
5. E Encarnacion, 3B
6. J Hamilton, CF
7. A Gonzalez, SS
8. C Moeller, C
9. M Belisle, P

Before his injuries, Durbin threw about 100 MPH and was a top-notch prospect. But then he suffered a torn labrum, which is the most serious injury a pitcher can suffer & one from which almost no pitcher has ever fully recovered. Since then, it's my understanding that his velocity has sunk to the high 80s & he has been totally ineffective.

I don't have any objection to stashing a guy like this in the minors in the highly unlikely chance that he someday is able to make a complete or near-complete recovery. But I fully expect tomorrow's start to be ugly. The same goes with Happ's start on Saturday. He's a legit prospect but he got totally lit up in spring training & hasn't even pitched more than 5 innings since coming back from his injury. I would have sooner seen Maloney get the start, as he at least has had the hot hand of late.

my friend has to work tomorrow and has three tickets to tomorrow's game. Is anyone interested?

I was expecting some mentions of our old friend Rick "Weird Beard" White, getting lit up in Milwaukee like my Uncle Louis on Christmas Eve. Those meatballs he threw looked delicious...

The Astros just cut Weird Beard Rick White. Dollars to Doughnuts, Lake Nostradamus predicts he's wearing the Phillies Bloodstripes before July the 4th.

As soon as I read that, Lake Fred, "Midnight Special" by CCR just played on my iPod. Nice...

i'd take the beird over: Joe Table, Condrey, Sanches, geary....

The Phillies are baseball's version of Ellis Island. All the riffraff, rejects and refugees from other organizations find a home here.

tonight, we have secretly switched aaron rowand and encarnacion.

let's see if anyone notices.

The Beard probably got his bad outing out of his system. He'll be groovin' for his next team. The Phils can pick him up when they roll into oil town on Monday.

Guys who change teams every few months are guys with lots of bad outings in their system. He'll fit right in.

3-0 green light. I love it.

It's a mistake to pitch to Utley with a base open the way he's going now. Howard might hit a mistake, Utley's hitting everything hard.

Yeah... but 500+ feet have a way of putting a scare into a pitcher whether he's an "easier" out or not.

We'll be closer to 4th place than 1st come Monday.

Can't wait to see Cholly make that wave to the BP in the 3rd inning when Mets light up one of those kids.

Slow learners.

As maddening as it has been to watch the Phils this year, I have to keep remind myself that their core of talent (Howard, Utley, Rollins, Hamels, Myers) is as good as anybody in the league.

Folks, we're really down to 2 starters.

Mets game is cancelled.Blessing for the Mets- El Duque will now start tomorrow. Their bulpen will be fresh. We'll be lucky to get 5 inning's out of Eaton-our bullpen will be fried.

This run to the All-Star break is going to be ugly. And they really have no choice anymore with Myers.

The really sad thing about Eaton's season so far it that he has supposedly been 100% healthy all season. Hard to believe with the awful numbers he has been putting up.

The only qualified starter (with enough starts) with a worse ERA is the NL is Kip Wells. Eaton ranks 50 out of 51. In the entire MLB, Eaton now ranks 90 of 93. The only qualified starters with a worse ERA are Odalis Perez (Texas), Kameron Loe (Texas), and old-favorite Vicente Padilla.

And to think if the Phils had only been able to resign Wolf instead of Eaton, we would probably be looking at the playoffs.

There was no way Wolf was going to resign here.

Greg Dobbs is the clutchest guy since Chris "Clutch" Coste.

...and how is Sarge going to claim that that people stopped doing the wave?

roy dobbs!

Where would we be without Dobbs & his clutch hits.

Didn't Dobbs get the memo? This team is supposed to weakly strike out with 2 outs in RISP. 33 RBI for the Seattle castoff this year.

Don't worry Mike Wes will show him how to do it

That's more like it. Guess we could not pinch hit him with Bourn.

Too early Cholly

....and if he was going to do that anyway, why not pinch run for Dobbs?

and put nunez at third.

i'm 2 miles north of philly, and its raiing cats and dogs. this aint gonna go 9.

Eaton finally puts 2 good innings together, and gets yanked?

Madson throws a 5-pitch walk to the first batter. Here we go again . . .

I can't believe Eaton said he was done at 89 pitches. And I know Cholly wasn't eager to get to his pen. WTF?

Bourne stinks, and where did that arm come from on Rowand?

I think we might need some bullpen help

It's a pretty pathetic commentary on the Phillies' bullpen that there is all this angst directed at the manager because he removed a starter who had allowed 5 earned runs in 6 innings.

ZT: It's Bourn not Bourne, & upon what plausible basis could you conclude that he stinks?

bay - Eaton had set down the last 7 easily. Do you want to see him go again, or our AAA BP?

Eaton's command was horrible tonight, as it has been most nights. He was throwing big fat hanging curves and sliders right over the middle of the plate. Madson's big mistake was walking Norris Hopper, a triple A player. You go right after guys like that.

curt, given the DH tomorrow, I'm inclined to agree with you on this one. See if you can squeeze another inning out of him.

Curt: I guess my post was a little vague. Given the state of the Phillies' bullpen, I thought Cholly should have left Eaton in the game. The point I was trying to make was that, if the Phillies had a normal bullpen, the decision to remove a starter who had allowed 5 runs in 6 innnings would not have generated even the slightest bit of controversy.

There has been a repeated statement on the board that Ed Wade traded away plenty of minor league talent. Take a look at the list:

What minor leaguer traded would be having an impact on this team or Ottawa? I'll volunteer Silva, Punto, and Estrada. Who's next on this list? (By the way, Wade traded Eaton in 2000, so that has to be a plus for Wade.)

How many lost draft picks were there in the Wade era?
1) 2nd round 2000 (Jason Bourgeois - TEX in that general slot - this is the Utley draft)
2-3) 2nd / 3rd rd of 2001 (slots of Kelly Shoppach BOS, Lazaro Abreu SEA - with Gavin Floyd number 4 in the country)
4-5) 1st /2nd rd 2003 (slots of David Murphy BOS and Todd Jennings, SF - this is the Tim Moss draft)
6) 1st rd 2005 (Trevor Crowe, CLE - this is the Constanzo draft)

I'll give you Shoppach.

I'm not disputing that Wade's moves impacted the minors. But it's too convenient to put it all on Wade. It overlooks the elephant in the room that the main problem with this team is a complacent ownership not challenging the minor league staff's inability to either scout or develop (your call) the numbers (key word here) of players needed to provide a competitive major league club.

Wouldn't it be nice to have an option to make a trade, or have a ready starter or bullpen guy, or a real position player option, or a couple of minor league bargaining chips? If we had those, would we have as many Condrey-Geary-Mesa-Lieber-Helms-Barajas-Werth-Bell types of discussions?

My pessimism is that I see no indication that there will ever be any accountability for a mediocre-to-bad minor league management and staff. If it didn't happen when Gillick arrived, it's not gonna happen in the Amaro era either.

bay - no argument that Eaton is generally awful. With this staff for the next 80 games is going to be a constant process of trying to pick the least bad of alot of bad options.

The actual prospects Wade traded away were mostly garbage. But he also lost a lot of high draft choices by signing worthless free agents like David Bell.

That said, you won't ever hear me putting it "all on Wade." Wade's lasting legacy is not that he traded away garbage prospects, but that he hamstrung us with a lot of stupid contracts. But the current regime has had 2 years, and $30 to $35M in spending money this past off-season, to put its own stamp on the team. Ed Wade is by no means blameless for the Phillies' current predicament, but he also wasn't the one who acquired Gordon, Helms, Nunez, Garcia, Barajas, Rhodes, R. Franklin, Fasano, Santana, Werth, Mesa & Rosario.

s97- just so.

Madson is one guy we have to trade if there is any GM out there who is still willing to give us value. He might get it together somewhere else, but he's out of time here.

It's fitting that PtBB finished out the Helms line for the night.

what is this quadruple-triple they're talking about for J-roll?

Pat is useless!

At least they're back even.

Who's up in the pen for the top of the 9th?

I can't take it anymore. I'm not blaming specifically Manuel or the bullpen anymore. Because, please allow me to steal a quote from Bill Parcells, "they are who they are." ANd that is bums. The reason the Bums are constantly run out to give up leads and cough up games from innings 6-9 is not Manuel. Its GIllick and he needs to be held responsible at some point. I just cant take this team anymore. The pitching is so bad is laughable. Unless we score 10 runs in the first 5 innings our pitchers will eventually blow it. So as I sit here with my blood pressure rising, I ask one question of Mr. Gillick:

Is this what you ment when you said we wont contend in 2007 and we will need to wait until 2008? If we were to be building a winner this year and not contending then shouldn't we have traded Rowand & Lieber before the season, not traded away 2 pitching prospects for Garcia, not wasted over $20 million on a fringe #5 starter in Eaton, dumped Burrell and agreed to pay a large % of his salary, and allowed Bourn to actually get major playing time before June 23rd? Lastly, Managment must think we are morons and will not call them out on these things...oh wait we are a small market and probably wouldn't realize it.

Time to say something nice about a pitcher: way to go A.A.

I wouldn't call Madson a bum but he seems to magically melt whenever he comes into a close game (tied or up/down a run) in the late innings. Still think that it is just a mental thing with Madson.

s97's post is the best one I've seen on here in awhile. Amidst a lot of revisionist history, thanks for a dose of reality, s97. The basic problem with this team isn't a loss of draft picks or minor leaguers. It is the failure to make wise decisions in who to draft, who to trade and who to acquire in trades.

Howard had no hope against that curve. I doubt he would hit it if he were to bat 20 times against this guy. Heck, he might not even foul one off.

Knocked down at the wall by too much rain. Crap.

A walkoff home run by Bourn would have been too surreal.

Did I mention this LOOGY guy was a waiver claim by the Reds? They were getting Coutlangus while we were getting Jim Ed Warden.

I think that was their last, best chance to win. Ryan Howard has gone 17 straight ABs without putting a ball in play that wasn't a homerun.


Bourn deserves a long look.

Uh oh, Condrey.

you know, i'd have to go zagurski instead here.

i'd really like to see madson just DFAed when they have to bring one of the starters up this weekend. his time here is done. maybe he can be good somewhere else. he isnt going to make it here.

Here we are struggling mightily - again - to beat the worst team in baseball. Anyone want to talk about playoffs?

Of course, with Chollie's brilliant game management, there are no pinch runners left who are faster than Barajas.


Hamels will have to go 9 in one of those games tomorrow. Who the heck is the closer tonight? Please don't say Mesa. Yoel maybe?

oh wait, we won't need one.

Mutts in 14 hours.

At least Jose will be well rested.

I guess Yoel, Geary & Zagurski are still available.

I didn't like that attempted sacrifice play at all -- and Ruiz fouls off one bunt attempt before striking out on the third strike missed bunt. Bad strategy by Cholly -- and bad execution by Ruiz.

Was that an unusual bunting failure by Ruiz, or is he just a lousy bunter?

Uh, did someone take the bunt sign off for ruiz at 1-1 and turn it back on at 1-2?


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