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Tuesday, May 22, 2007

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Pat Burrell answered the call, now how about we talk smack on Jimmy Rollins, because we need his bat to come back to life in a bad way. His struggles are getting very bad at the same time Burrell got hot. Here's to hoping J-Roll finds the spacious gaps in Florida for some triples or even another inside the park homerun.

I was hoping this would be the post I'd read this morning.

This pretty much cements my hatred and loathing for and of Mr. David Montgomery.

Is there any way all the Beerleaguer fans can band together and pony up cash to buy this franchise from these head-in-the-sand "Nothing to see here" idiots?

I'll start. I have $4 in my wallet.

I've got $22 in my wallet. Count me in!

Problem is, we don't agree with each other on here. Barajas vs. Coste. Borowski vs. our trash. Abreu...etc.

Count me in for $93 and what appears to be about $4 in pennies and nickels in my desk drawer. We're off and running.

Damn J, you roll big time!

Count me in. Montgomery is showing why he's such a loser.

Is anyone really surprised by this? This is the Phillies we're talking about here.

I have $108 in my wallet and another couple hundred in the bank. Let's do this.

I got on the site today in the midst of a rain of frogs, swarm of locusts, and a bloody pool at my apartment, and an agreement with Tray from the last post. Tray, I would just like to commend you for your seperation (At least on one point) from the triumvirate of contradiction: RSB, AWH, and Davethom. It seems that you have actually been paying attention to baseball this season (a good thing if you want to make reasonable baseball comentary). Your comments on the man, not specifically mentioned here, but known only as B-ski, was dead on from the last post. Keep up the good fight.

Side note: The sidebar with the presedintial cantidates has the strange affect of making me nauseated. It appears the John Mcaine is being held up at gunpoint. Obama is calling his shot. I don't even know who the other guy is but it seems that he has five fingers on one hand. While Bill Clinton may claim that he did not inhale, it appears conclusive evidence from that photo that Hillary did, and apparently right before the photo was taken.

Montgomery and Giles appear to be made for each other and sent to Philadelphia in order to rule over the hapless Phillie Phan masses....They are a hellspun creation sent by Beelzebub himself to doom the baseball fans of the Delaware Valley...

well, maybe that's a little strong, but they certainly are a powerful duo of ineffectiveness.

Imagine Giles and Monty on a Friday night. Wooohooo!

Giles is the worst. I saw his book at Barnes and Noble yesterday but I refuse to give that fata** any more money. That guy has stolen baseball from the fans of Philadelphia.

Parker, the guy at the top is Mitt Romney. Which makes your statement about his hand quite ironic.

Of course J rolls big time - he works for the Eagle!

Did Ruly Carpenter die? I know that sounds really harsh, but I thought he was a young man (40s) when he sold the Phils in 1981. That would put him in his sixties. Given that he is a Carpenter, I'd imagine he's still worth millions.

Stand up, all you millionaires of Philly who know and understand the fan. We need you!

David Montgomery doesn't care WHO you are - the Phillies are about marketing first, and baseball second. If you're gonna criticize one of the Phillies, it's like you're criticizing one of the brilliant ad campaigns that Montgomery lovingly cobbled together himself.

MONTY: "Come see Pat Burrell at Citizen's Bank Park and get goosebumps! What a fantastic group of guys we have! yay!"
GILLICK: "Middle of the lineup sucks"
MONTY: /head explodes from too much cognitive dissonance

The article only further cements what we've been saying all along - Gillick is a puppet. Not sure at what point a "veteran GM with two World Series rings and universal respect in the baseball community" decides to take a job where he is really nothing more than a figurehead for a infamously cheap and unflexible ownership group, but there's no question in my mind that that is precisely what he is at this point.

That being said, everyone who continues to point the finger at Gillick should look upwards. They'll see Monty and the gang holding some marionette strings. At least Gillick got a nice house in Seattle out of the deal!

Salisbury's an idiot. Moyer says we're playing like wimps - since Moyer's comment, we're a .600 ballclub. Ah, that must prove that Moyer's comment spurred us on. Gillick comments on Burrell, Burrell starts hitting - that must prove that Gillick motivated him. Meanwhile, the same comments had no effect on Helms or Howard, but I guess 1 for 3 is good enough to prove some kind of causal connection.

Of course it is Tray. Haven't you seen Utley's performance since the Eskin/Manuel incident????? It's clear that Utley decided he was going to start hitting for his manager. There is obviously a clear connection with this team that they like to slack off until someone lights a fire under them (tongue firmly in cheek).

Yeah Pat, that middle of the lineup is really bad, you know with Chase Utley's .919 OPS and Pat Burrell's being FOURTH in the league in OBP, behind only Bonds, Derrick Lee, and Helton and one spot ahead of Berkman.

Too bad we couldn't have found a way to pay $100M+ to someone like this http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/soriaal01.shtml

If Pat were a better GM, he would realize that the team's biggest *long-term* offensive concern is what happens when Rowand, J-Roll and Nunez all return to their normally crappy OBP.

A healthy Howard can make up for that, but this current lineup is ridiculous; J-Roll and Rowand were smoking the ball in their old roles...why change things?

Seriously Kdon? When Gillick made that comment, Burrell had what, 1 HR and 11 RBIs, Howard struggling/hurt and Helms doing nothing. Burrell walking is a nice change from K'ing all the time, but does nothing for run production. He's got that albatross of a contract to hit the ball hard and drive in runs, like he started doing on the 2HR Friday. He was killing us.

Bill Giles speaking about his book: "The part of baseball economics is the one chapter I worried about the most. Some people who have read it think it's educational, others think it's boring. The majority of fans are like Joe Sixpack, and they probably don't care about the economics of baseball. All they care about is being entertained on the field and winning."

Notice he puts being entertained on the field ahead of winning. I don't think that was unintentional. Giles truly believes that fans care more about entertainment than they do about winning, and that philosophy has guided his actions from the day he took over from Ruly Carpenter. That is his essence as a song and dance man, not a baseball man. And that is why the Phillies are what they are today.

Gillick's comments were also directed at Howard and Helms, and were not directed at Utley.

And frankly, I don't know if Gillick's words are what motivated Burrell or not, but someone had to say something.

If it takes criticism from the Front Office to motivate a player to "try harder," then these guys are more overpaid than I had originally thought.

What I was attempting to say about Utley was that the timing of his bat getting hotter and breaking out of his mini-slump just happended to coincidentally coincide with the Eskin/Manuel fiasco. I don't think that anyone can seriously believe that a player can just decide that he wants to start hitting better, then it happens. If that's the case, someone ask Ryan Howard to start putting it together when he gets back, please.

I admit to not really knowing that much about the hated ownership group of the Phillies. What should they do differently? I hear a lot of complaining about the implicit salary cap. Is spending more money really the answer? Would deeper pockets bring a playoff appearance? Maybe, but how much more money? And would offering more money be enough to convince premium free agents to sign here? I'm not convinced that money is the problem; maybe others disagree.

Is it that they don't bring in the right personnel in the front office? They spend too much time on marketing and not enough on building a winning baseball team on the field? What's the Beerleaguer ownership group going to do differently once it settles in behind the big desk in the corner office?

Regarding the issue of Gillick's hand slap: I really doubt that Gillick would stay in this job if he really felt that he had no control, that there were marionette strings guiding his moves. What's his incentive? He already has enough money to retire; hell, he's already bought his retirement home! He doesn't really have anything left to prove. In a way, this is a criticism of him as well as a defense: I'm not going to applaud his performance thus far, and frankly sometimes one does get the impression that he's just sort of phoning it in. But I can't imagine that he would stick around this notoriously unforgiving town, wearing a pair of handcuffs, at his age and with his track record.

Monty might as well have castrated Gillick in the middle of the locker room. OK, so Giles is the drooling idiot son of baseball people; what on earth makes Monty think he should get involved in baseball matters? Rich nailed it -- these guys believe in marketing over all else, and have little clue how to run a business, let alone a baseball team.

The team is guilty of coddling its players over the years, particularly the homegrown talent. Whenever a player is pushed, the front office reaction has been a repremend of some sort. That's been consistent. Look back over the last few years. Green calls out Rolen, followed by wrist slap. Green calls out Manuel, wrist slap. Gillick criticizes middle order, wrist slap.

Look at the people they hire. Ed Wade. Yes man. Charlie Manuel. Yes man. They avoid people who will make waves, like Leyland.

It's been constant. What was the team response to Myers' arrest last season? "It didn't happen." That's what their actions said. In the words of Giles, who learned of the situation from someone internally, it was as if Kim Myers was at fault.

In the world of the Phillies, everything anybody does is perfect.

Laramie
remove bong from mouth.
you live in fantasy land.
Gillick is being paid to be a figurehead. Why not? its an easy job. He doesnt frikin CARE !
He would rather be retired than do this. No doubt. But why not take the Phillies offer to make money without doing anything? come in, make it look good for them and dont do anything they wouldnt do.

Jimmy Leyland wanted to win at the cost of running things his own way. Giles and BillM said no no...

never win with those lame asses in charge


Anything he does to upset David "Evidently Too Dumb to Dress Himself" Montgomery and/or Bill "Walking Sphincter Who Should Sell or Leave This World" Giles, makes me like Gillick a lot more.

I live in Brooklyn, and a friend (Mets fan) called me up this morning to ask if I felt like going to CBP, where he's never been, sometime soon. I told him I'd rather pay the Mets org to see a game at Shea than put one more cent in the pockets of the Phils ownership.

I agree with Alby-it's all about marketing with ownership, not winning. Isn't Giles a marketing guy, anyway? On 610, Steve or Anthony made a good point: the face of this franchise is the Phanatic.

mijke,

If Gillick didn't care, the story of him getting slapped on the wrist wouldn't have gone public. Maybe you should lay off the bong (and give it to me).

Got a bad feeling about tonight's game despite Hamels going. Olsen has been tough his last few outings and Marlins are hot coming off sweep of the D-Rays. Expect to see Werth tonight.

Billy Mac: "Expect to see Werth tonight."

Why, are you going to see "28 Weeks"? He'd make a perfect zombie...

(Completely off topic, but interesting nonetheless) I just stumbled across this website http://www.benfry.com/salaryper/ that connects team performance against salary. You can slide the timeline back and forth, should be interesting to see if the knot unties somewhat as the year progresses.

"Burrell walking...does nothing for run production."

That's funny, and simply wrong. I suggest you try to find a stat that coorelates more with runs scored than OBP. I won't hold my breath.

Burrell's OBP has been over .400 the entire season. There is simply no way that a player who is only retired 58% of the time "kills" a team.

Same goes with Howard. WHat killed the team early on was poor situational hitting (mostly luck), poor starting pitching, and the bullpen blowing some close games...not the middle of the order.

Kdon: To be fair, what people who criticized the middle of the order were actually saying was, "Sure our pitching sucks, but if everyone in our lineup would only get hot at the same time, nobody would notice."

Hamels career numbers are good against the fish. Olsen has the potential to blow up at any moment. This may be a statement that I will eat later on tonight, but I think that the time has passed when we should suspect clunker outings from Hamels. Of course every pitcher has them, even the greatest pitchers, but I have the same confidence in Cole as I did with Schilling when he was on fire. There are maybe 3-4 pitchers that are having as good of a season as Hamels right now.

1.) Dan Haren: I think without a doubt, Haren has been the best pitcher in baseball so far.
2.) Josh Beckett: but I'm not drinking any koolaid on this guy.
3.) Jake Peavy: Only other guy that is in the conversation with Haren right now. (Although I think Hamels is about to rudely butt into it.)

Kdon,

He had 1 HR and 11 RBIs until recently. He's our #5 hitter. That's a joke. Believe me, I'd rather see him take a walk than K looking, but production from him was/is sorely needed, not hoping for a walk so he won't get booed. (and of course, a walk is still getting on base and in some cases, a walk can bring in a run)

mijke: ok, so Gillick is a yes-man, according to you, who has to do what the front office tells him to do. So, what exactly is the front office telling him to do? Lose? Not bring in bullpen help? Not improve scouting? Not stress fundamentals? Not improve in-game strategy?

I don't get it. What does a manager do differently, what does the GM do differently, if the ownership group doesn't demand a yes man? It's repeated on this blog as a truism, over and over again. Giles and Monty only want yes-men, they don't want anyone to rock the boat, etc. I just don't think I've ever seen anyone give actual examples of what it translates to in terms of actual decisions.

kdon: being the stat guy that you are, do you happen to know what the Phils Batting Average per Balls hit in Play (BABIP) is this year?

You talk about offensive struggles, I read somewhere yesterday that the White Sox BABIP was astronomically low right now. There is no doubt that this dirrectly correlates to runs scored (or lack thereof). I just wonder what the Phils were running on that stat earlier in the year when all of the offensive struggles were going on.

We are all part of "one of the most cynical forums on Phillies baseball." At first I thought if Jason wrote it it must be true, but it could be part of a conspiracy to make us look bad. There could be traitors among us. I read where dajafi has friends who are Mets fans. I have a neighbor who is a Yankees fan, but we never talk baseball anymore. I wonder why? DQ changes his name. RSB became DH for awhile only to re-emerge as RSB. Oisin and Bloodstripes rarely post anymore. Clout has gotten nicer. I wonder why? It's got to be a conspiracy. Soon Michael Moore will be making a film about Beerleaguer and its cynical underbelly. All is lost. Oh! King Cole please win tonight against the hated fish to make us all happy again!

Laramie: For one thing, it translates into the arrogance that led someone in the FO (I forget who, someone help here) to tell a reporter last year that nobody with the Phillies believed in any of that Moneyball nonsense, thank you very much. Leyland wasn't hired because he had the temerity to tell the FO that the 3B (Bell at the time) and I believe C (Lieberthal) were not good enough and had to go. It saddles a manager with a bunch of minor-league lifers as coaches because it wants to help them qualify for major-league pension benefits. It hires a lot of its glory-year players (Del Unser, Greg Gross) as coaches and minor-league instructors rather than look outside the organization for the best, PROVEN coaching talent. I'll pass the baton to others...

We are all part of "one of the most cynical forums on Phillies baseball." At first I thought if Jason wrote it it must be true, but it could be part of a conspiracy to make us look bad. There could be traitors among us. I read where dajafi has friends who are Mets fans. I have a neighbor who is a Yankees fan, but we never talk baseball anymore. I wonder why? DQ changes his name. RSB became DH for awhile only to re-emerge as RSB. Oisin and Bloodstripes rarely post anymore. Clout has gotten nicer. I wonder why? It's got to be a conspiracy. Soon Michael Moore will be making a film about Beerleaguer and its cynical underbelly. All is lost. Oh! King Cole please win tonight against the hated fish to make us all happy again!

See! The conspiracy caused a double Lake Fred repeat posting and forced me to type some gibberish code before my double post came through sandwiching Alby. Something's fishy around here. Oh! It's the Marlins! Arrrggghhh!!!

With Nunez taking over most games at third, should the bench be changed? Helms becomes their big right-handed bench threat. Dobbs will go back on the bench when Howard returns, or may work his way into the lineup at a corner or in the outfield.

I don't know what's floating out there as far as corner outfield is concerned, but the Phillies could use a left-handed outfielder instead of Werth, who's even more insignificant now that Helms is on the bench. Usually, these types of players become available by the bushload at the deadline, like Conine was.

The lack of power at third and right is going to start catching up with them, specifically in right field where a platoon situation would be ideal. Because Rowand had been hitting so well, they've been able to avoid this issue.

Jason, I dont think he is available (though he might be later), but Mark Teahen would be a good Left handed OF/3B (he can play either). Also, if you are talking about guys that might be useful at 3B, Kevin Kouzmanoff comes to mind. He struggled mightily at the beginning of the season, but has turned it around lately. He was projected as a solid hitting 3B. I think his value is significantly increased batting in a park like the Bank, as opposed to Petco. The Pads also have a 3B prospect (Barden) who is in the top 10 prospects in baseball. I think Kouzmanoff would be the guy that would/could be the most available. Plus you gotta love the name.

I remember reading when the Phillies did not hire Leyland that one NL source quoted the Phillies organization as very stale and behind the times.

Many front office and behind the scenes personnel from top to bottom have not changed in many, many years.

As witnessed we see a very redundant and predictable team the last few years despite better home grown talent and a surprise entry into some FA signings with the new ballpark.

Unless the Phils make the playoffs which appears possible but probably unlikely this could be a very different team next year.

Will Manuel and/or Gillick be around? Maybe one or neither but are the potential replacements out there any better or in a position to make a difference?

Lieber, Rowand, and Garcia if they even make it to the end of the season are most likely long gone.

Barajas probably/hopefully will not be asked back and there are alot of one year contracts up and we know Howard's situation will be a big issue.

I think this FO would have the Mets and/or Braves somehow playing under .500 and underachieving this year.

But from the luxury suites above Monty & Giles would be toasting as they are agreeing the team looks like the fine wine from which they are intoxicated from and are proud of "their" results on the field and balance sheet.

Parker: What in the world do you think the Phillies have that would cause the Padres to part with Kouzmanoff or the Royals Teahen?

Parker, the Phils right now have a .310 BABIP which is higher than the league average of .295 (and waaay better than the Sox .250).

I'm not really sure how big a deal this is though. BABIP is an important stat to indicate luck for pitchers, but I'm not so sure about hitters.

It would have been interesting to see where those numbers were early in the year, and if they have significantly improved.

*If you want to check out these stats, just go to the "Teams" page at The Hardball Times.

On PtB, I agree that he wasn't slugging at his normal rate and coudl have been doing better, but he was getting hits w/RISP and certainly wasn't "killing the team." If his SLG gets up to his normal .500, Burrell won't just be "getting the job done," he'd be one of the top offensive corner OF in baseball.

When Gillick made his comment, the Phils were the top run scoring team in the NL. Since that point, they have actually struggled to hit (PtB excepted), so it's hard to see how his comments were justified.

Agreed Jason: Rowand, early Rollins Nunez and (perhaps) Ruiz are all performing above expectations, and covering fo holes in the offense. Even if Howard does return, the team is likely going to have 4 players in the starting lineup with OBP in the .330 over the course of the rest of the season. Though also, with three players possibly around .400.

The final player, Vic, is really a wild card. If he stays where he is OBP-wise, he'll be alright, but if he starts to drop, he just doesn't have the pop to play RF everyday.

Bill Conlin wrote a column sometime last year that really struck a chord with me. He pointed out that, from a historical perspective, we are currently enjoying the second-best multi-season run in Phillies history. Before the 75-83 period, the Phillies had a hard time putting together five consecutive mediocre seasons, let alone winning ones. This team, despite not making the playoffs, has been in contention (albeit for the wild card) five of the past six years, and finished just one game under .500 in 2002. This tops the Whiz Kid era, when they topped .500 four times in a 5-year period, for the NO. 2 extended run in team history. Pathetic, of course, but Conlin's point was that, compared to the team's past, this team is terrifically successful. These guys are slapping each other's backs, telling themselves what a great job they've done, and by the sorry standards of the Giles Reign, they're right.

More to the point, this was a team hoping for about 20 homers 75-80 RBIs from Helms, and now he's on the bench. Those expectations seem very unrealistic now (0 HR, .638 OPS). That's pretty useless for a starting player.

Speaking of RF, maybe Gillick should get some credit for staying away from three names that were often mentioned on Beerleaguer: Huff, Nixon and (my favorite) Catalanotto.

They currently have respective OPSs of: .672, .752, and .644.

Ugh, considering what they are paying him as well as his defensive contributions and speed, and Vic is vastly superior to this group so far.

Frankly I am not all that surprised by the Salisbury's article about Montogomery and Gillick. Nothing new about the Phils' ownership playing "whack a mole" with anyone who speaks against the company line.

I am much more interested in the sources that gave the story to Salisbury. Figuring that Salisburgy needed at least two sources, I wonder who Salisbury spoke with in the Phils' front office.

Did Gillick finally get frustrated with all the crap he has to deal with and anonymously leak this story through one of his people in the front office?

The ultimate conspiracy scenario is that Amaro Jr. leaked the info to increase the friction between Gillick and Montomgery. Just speeding up the likelihood of Gillick's inevitable departure.

Jason, freat thread.

I am not, and no one who reads Beerleaguer should be surprised by this even a little bit.

Many people, myself included, have been saying for months what the real problem with this franchise is - ownership, Bill Giles and his puppet, er..proxy, one David Montgomery. If you think for one minute that it was The Puppet's idea to call PG in then I suggest you pay closer attention to this franchise. Ol' Bill the marketing genius probably went ballistic thinking that someone had criticized the product he was trying to sell us.

This incident crystalizes it for me and should for you.

It's not about building a championship baseball team, it's about marketing and selling an inferior product to you and me on hopes and prayers. Winning be damned as long as the turnstiles are busy.

I apologize to the players if they're offended with the "inferior" label - prove me wrong.

But until then I'll continue to believe that ownership and their puppets and flunkies only care about the money.

Why else would Monty have had a problem with Gillick calling out the team?

kdon: That's a good point. Soon enough, it's worth a thread looking at players Gillick passed on. It would help clear his name a little.

Kind of a rare pro-Gillick day on Beerleaguer.

On a more positive note, Jerry Crasnick has a nice article on Hamels on ESPN:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=2878204&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

Most interesting thing from the article is that Hamels is getting misses on 37% of his changeups. That is outstanding. Talk about a money pitch. I wonder if any other Phils pitcher is close to getting misses on a particular pitch.

I would venture a bet that Myers has a pretty high percentage on his fastball since moving to the closer's role.

Good point Alby, also the Good Phight recently pointed out how many of the top position players of all time have been on the Phillies during this stretch.

Utley, Rollins, Howard, Thome Abreu and (dare I say it) Lieberthal all have (or will have) arguments for being the best ever Phil at their respective positions.

That's what makes the current situation so frustrating. I think the Phils have had two of the worst managers in baseball during this stretch (though terrible for completely different reasons), and two GMs who couldn't understand how to build around a core group...ultimately this falls on the "stale" ownership.

The point about the all-time Phillies team has also struck me: Rollins, Utley and Howard are or soon will be the unchallenged greatest Phillies ever at their positions, and your point about Lieberthal is well taken -- for all his faults, he's certainly among the finalists for that honor. Meanwhile 3B, long a strong point, has us longing for Charlie Hayes, and the outfield is similarly bereft (which brings up the point that Abreu might not crack the starting 3, but is right up there). No wonder so many writers pick the team to make the playoffs every year.

AWH, great, great, great post. As Phanatical Phans, we hate to think that we're being sold "a bill of goods." Truth be told, the marketing department at any company is tasked with making their product as attractive as possible to consumers (you and I in this case). Regardless of whether the company is selling top of the line luxury vehicles or Dixie cups, the job of Marketing is to add value to the brand/product.

As with any company, ownership, stockholders, etc. place different emphasis on different parts of the business. Some are quality-based and pride themselves on results and let the items speak for themselves (think BMW).

Others focus primarily on more Marketing top-line initiatives to drive Sales. Coincidentally, these are often the same companies who have more of a focus on cost-cutting and the implication to the bottom line since the product, as a general rule of thumb, isn't quite up to the same caliber as that of it's competition and can use the "push." Precisely why Wal*Mart advertises infinitely more often than Neiman Marcus. As a true fan of the Phils since I was a kid it hurts to say it but Bill Giles is precisely the type of guy that would have made money trying to sell the Pet Rock.

I haven't looked at the Yankees' schedule, but I'd bet that they have far less "Shane Victorino Hula Figurine Nights" than the Phillies do. Simply put, their product has historically sold itself.

have a hard time seeing how Abreu wouldn't crack the top three in Phillies OFs. only Chuck Klein had a better OPS in a Phillies uniform - Abreu beats out Sliding Billy Hamilton and Big Ed Delahanty. (that's not just in the OF; that's actually at any position.) and who else is there, really?

Pat Burrell is doing well now, but it's against teams he doesn't see often. I hope this isn't the case, but it could be that these teams don't fully grasp the low and away breaking ball approach to Burrell. I was at the Brewers game where Burrell hit the almost homer and the at-bat was great evidence of this. Cordero threw sliders low and away every single pitch except for the one Burrell smacked. He went down 0-2 on sliders and then Cordero kept missing the plate and Burrell managed to foul a couple off. Cordero seemed to get frustrated and came in on him then payed for it. I'm just not ready to accept Burrell is back until he keeps this up for a few more weeks.

adding, Dykstra only played two full seasons in Philly and Ashburn, as much as I would have liked to watch him play, was extremely one-dimensional.

Here's a sickening stat for everyone. Our 3rd basemen have ZERO homeruns but 12 errors. WTF?!

The Phils have 12 guys in HoF right now. Just curious how many of today's Phils are worthy of the same honor when it's all said and done. Thoughts?

I'd take Bobby Dernier and his walk-off inside the park home run over Bobby Abreu for all-time outfield.

And I'd definitely take Glenn Wilson or Bake McBride first for the position itself. Bake's 'fro was more productive then Bobby in pressure situations.

I will never understand the love for #53, who, incidentally, grounded meekly to first with the bases loaded last night, again, shown in these here parts.

And for the record, we have $231 raised to buy the Phillies so far. Keep it coming!

To further clarify, Phils in the HoF include 9 players (defined as played the majority of their years with the Phillies) and 3 Managers. Sadly, I don't know that Manuel is going to make it a fourth.

Just for the record, the nine players are:
Pete Alexander
Richie Ashburn
Steve Carlton
Ed Delahanty
Billy Hamilton
Chuck Klein
Robin Roberts
Mike Schmidt
Sam Thompson

Sadly, only Carlton and Schmidt began their Phillies careers after 1950.

I know it's early, but I don't see any of the Phils as likely HoF members. Utley and Howard have started too late, Myers is being jerked around, and Hamels is only one year in.

I would say the best bet would be Utley, followed by Hamels, Myers, J-Roll, then Howard.

Two players who surely will make it...Curt Schilling and Scott Rolen.

I don't want to start a major debate, but had Abreu continues his age 27-31 into his late 30s (not looking likely now), he certainly would have been in the discussion.

JZ: I assume your post is tongue-in-cheek.

Carson: A team with a Helms/Nunez platoon at 3B just isn't a playoff team. Nor is a team with Geary/Madson as setup man. Sorry kdon, that's just a fact.

krub: Odds are good that Pat the Bat will be there at season's end with his usual stats. Don't sweat the short-term stuff.

Somewhat, yes. Obviously I'd take Abreu over McBride's 'fro.

kdon -- is Myers really being wasted? He's looked insane in the fireman's role (Jason posted that term recently and I love it).

Rollins will not make the Hall of Fame. And ahead of Howard?

Let's just see them all win a World Series; and with the current ownership, it's a freaking lock.

Yes. Tongue. Cheek. Check.

kdon, I'll agree mostly. Let's call Utley and Hamels "in" for argument's sake. That being said, Hamels does have a chance to become as good or better than Carlton, but again, it's still so early to tell.

With all due respect to anyone over the age of 70 (in which case I admire you for figuring out how to use this whacky Internet-thingy), I think that Utley should be the best 2B ever to play for the Phils when he winds his career up (since Ryne Sandberg doesn't qualify, anyway). My apologies to Mickey Morandini.

Abreu would needed 3 or 4 more solid years near his 2004 peak in order to garner HOF consideration.

I'd think Rollins is ahead of Myers in the race, too. He's had more consistent seasons and he was good out of the gate. Compare Rollins to a Joe Morgan and notice how Rollins seems to be ahead of the pace. The only downfall to his case are the fellow SS he's had to play with (Jeter, A-Rod for a while, Tejada). Don't give me that Reyes crap (not for another 3 or 4 years).

Utley would need to be the best 2B in the game for another 5 years. Which isn't impossible at all. It could very well be the case.

Howard I don't think will have a shot. Sadly. Even if he started this year hotter.

Hamels, well, he's got many years to go. Let's hope.

I think Schill should go in as a Phillie. hHere's hoping.

Kdon, I don't see Rolen making the HOF.

Malcolm: Adjusted for the prevailing league averages of the 1970s, Rollins isn't close to Joe Morgan. Rollins, playing in a strong offense era, has a lifetime OPS of .754. Morgan, playing in a strong-pitching era, had a lifetime OPS of .819.

AWH and Preacher, why is marketing at odds with building a winning baseball team? Why would the owners not want to win, which makes marketing easier unless you're in Florida or Atlanta? You make it sound like it's an either-or. Either we build a winning team, we care about the baseball on the field and the pennant and the trophy; or we keep the turnstiles turning.


All you Nunez nay-sayers should be ashamed. The days of Nunez sucking are far in the past (early '06). Face the fact: Nunez is no good in a platoon at 3B. He needs to start regularly to be productive at the plate. It's a fact.

When given a chance to start every day at the second half of last season, Nunez started hitting respectably. ( this after struggling to hit while platooning with Bell the first half of '06 ).

This season, same story... he has proven he can hit when getting regular starts at 3B. Sure, he's a light hitter and has no power, but i'd rather see the ball put in play, on the ground, than weak flyouts anyway. He knows he has no power, unlike some. He fits well in the 7-8 hole of the lineup.

Also, the many defensive gems he has made this year have made up for all his errors.

The Nunez criticism has got to stop. Seriously, this is long overdue.

I still think Manny Trillo and his flawless defense rates him high on the Phillies list of best players by position. But Chase is clearly the better hitter.

If anyone else needs a blatantly obvious post, let me know.

And are folks really thinking *Jimmy Rollins* has a shot at the HOF? Oof.

Re: A pro-Gillick day. Not too difficult considering who he is up against. I think the only person you can put up against Monty and the owners is Mumia Abu-Jamal for a fair argument.

You need to shut the hell up!

Seriously, Nunez isn't even a mediocre Major League baseball player, and to suggest he is is retarded. I agree he's probably our best option at 3rd on this current team, but that doesn't make him worthy. Get a clue!

Laramie, I don't think marketing and a desire to win are mutually exclusive. In fact, I'm sure that Bill Giles has a sincere desire to bring home a winner. After all, he's been involved with baseball he's whole life-his father was NL president for a long time. My point is that his perspective as to what is necessary to build a winner is skewed by his background as a promoter (the entertainment side of the game). Nothing proved this fact more than when he pushed for the Phillies to sign Greg Jefferies over Larry Walker, because Jefferies was a more marketable name.

I guess what I'm saying is that while Giles wants to win, I think he places more emphasis on putting out an entertaining product. His misplaced priorities are what's killing this franchise.

Looking at traditional numbers, Jimmy does stack up quite well. And hey, if he can put up simliar numbers for the next 6-10 years, how can you easily deny him HOF consideration?

----The Gang of Seven ----

The Phillies Current Ownership Group:
- David Montgomery, Claire S. Betz
- AlexanderK.Buck, J. Mahlon Buck, Jr.
- William C. Buck, John S. Middleton
- Bill Giles

This Gang young of Beerleaguer posters and readrs is responcible since the sale of the team by the Carpenter Family in 1982 for your Prozac prescriptions, your dime a day drug habits, your creeping obesity, and the success you have had with women from 1983 onward due to your generally depressive and self destructive views of the world.

Let me repeat.

The Gang of Seven - The Owners of the Phillies - David Montgomery, Claire S. Betz, AlexanderK.Buck, J. Mahlon Buck, Jr.,
William C. Buck, John S. Middleton, and Bill Giles are responcible for ruining your lives.

The only Golden Era for the Phillies aside from the 1914 and 1950 Blips was created by the Carpenter Family and there General Manager Paul Owens.

"The core of the 1975-1983 teams was composed largely of players drafted under the Carpenter era, under the direction of long-time general manager Paul Owens, "The Pope". Sadly, Owens retired after the 1983 season, and Giles took over as general manager. Since then, through the 2005 season, under Giles and three other general managers, the Phillies have a win/loss record of 1677-1819."

http://www.sellthephils.com/2006/06/why_because_man.html#more

We must go back even further in history to the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire to understand this.

As wealth coagulated around an ineffective ruling class, Rome declined.

The reason the United States of America, achieved greatness, was because our ancestors escaped the Feudalism of Hereditary Wealth, and when people like the Duke of Northumberland told them to send 1/4 of all the crops grown and trees logged on his Grants in the New World to him, the way it had been going on in England for 1000 years, they told him "to go f*ck yourself".

Sports teams that are owned by self made men, or men who had wealth to begin with, and strive to make significantly more tend to be the best managed and most successful.
These men see the success or failure of their sports francise as an extention of themselves and a reflection on themselves.

Monte and Giles the trained bear, have been able to shield the other 5 owners in this group from the clear pure light of outrage of the fans, and rendered us impotent.

They have pulled off a shill game of epic proportions, of slight of hand, while we rail at Bowa and Manuel, and argue Gillick's signing of, or not signing of - Barajas and Borowski who for us would be a middle reliever with a 1.53 WHIP, and an ERA of 7.94, with no saves.

We have all had bosses who inherited their jobs, sometimes we have succeed in spite of them, and sometimes we keep our heads low to keep our jobs. I submit that Pat Gillick given the ownership situation is the former and Ed Wade was the latter.

I believe, that we now have a good team that is not about to fall apart because our current General Manager Pat Gillick has worked in his stewardship to leave the Phillies better than he found them, untieing the mass of knots in the ball of string that the Ownership and Ed Wade (god bless his little heart he had no power) handed to him. We have a 1st Baseman Ryan Howard, and a right fielder Shane Victorino, and a top of the rotation starter Cole Hamels (who was pushed to the majors a full 2 years earlier than would have happened in the past), who would not exsist if it were not for our GM. He is not a puppet he is working hard and building the minor leagues back by refusing to sign trash free-agents, and trading low A talent for bad relievers past their primes. You may disagree that this GM aside from Paul Owens "The Pope" is best and most professional General Manager the Phillies have ever had, that is your right as free American feudal wage workers, who jobs are being sent to China by country club types like the Gang of Seven --

But I believe in your hatred of the Manager and the General Manager, you have been dupped yet again but THE OWNERSHIP.

Pick up your Farm Impliments, Pitch Forks and Axes and Hoes (not nappy headed), set up your barricades the the French Revolution, on PATTISON, SOUTH DARIAN, PHILLIES DRIVE, and CITIZENS BANK WAY, and Storm the Owner's Parking Lot, go up the Private Elevator, Enter the Owner's Box take the Gang of Seven to a Re-Education Camp as they did in China, or just Assassinate them like the Romanov's in Russia!

The Phillies Owner's are to blame from the top of their bald pates, down to their comforable preppy docksiders.


Back in the day when Pat Gillick was making his hay, Dave Montgomery was driving a diaper truck!

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