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Thursday, April 12, 2007


filler-only, I was wondering who was going to replace Thurston here.

Of course Gillick had a prior connection to him though.....

Does Gillick remind anyone else of Fred Sanford?

RSB on the hit-and-run: "There *are* times when the upside far outweighs the risk, and it would behoove the Phillies to capitalize on them for a change." What would you consider those times to be?

Mike Maddux...

Jeremy Giambi...

Michael Garciaparra

I loved Pat Gillick when he came here because he wasn't Ed Wade. But if I read one more pick-up has some connection to Mr. Gillick from Seattle...

Do you guys really care who they picked up to replace Joe Thurston in AA? Sheesh. If there's nobody in A ball to replace him, of course, they'll go with someone familiar.

I can't wait until we get Dan Wilson! Hey, I think Jay Buhner is available too!

This is really pathetic. We need bullpen help and he brings in a middle infielder. Everyone makes excuses for Gillick, that he didn't have money to sign anyone. He had 7.2 million for Eaton and 10 million for Garcia and 2.5 million for Barajas. Atlanta knew they had a problem with the pen and addressed it. Wake up, firing Manuel will not change that fact, sorry Carson.

...Jake Blalock

Ken Brett...

JZ, that's sad that we all have given Gillick a free pass just because he isn't Ed Wade. Look at the facts, once given money to spend Wade brought us Thome, Bell, Millwood, Wagner and Milton. Not all worked out but at least they all looked like good moves at the time. What has Gillick done, given Padilla and Abreu away for nothing. We may have the worst manager in the NL east but believe it, we also have the worst GM.


Don't forget Mark Leiter and Juan Bell. If Ozzie Canseco makes a comeback, I'm sure we could find a spot for him.

why haven't we claimed one of ryan howard's brothers yet?

If Gillick had some type of connection to Linebrink we wouldn't be having a heart attack every 8th inning we have a lead.

As minor league filler, I couldn't care less whether he's an ex-Gillick guy. There are enough holes in the high minors to sign at least a half dozen more ex-Tacoma stars.

The crappy brother thread could be extended to include crappy sons, like Pete Rose Jr.

Dave Kingman - some corrections:

We got thome and bell through FA.

We traded for Millwood, Wagner and Milton. Of the three, Wagner was probably the only one we came out ahead on (duckworth+other prospects) - Millwood was about the same, and the twins got better use out of silva and punto than we got out of milton.

Yup, gillick has been responsible for two straight dumps which were awful, and many of us think that padilla staying would have got us to the postseason last year.

But wade traded polanco for oogie, when means we wouldn't have had to go for helms this year, and wouldn't have had the goodawful fiasco of bell and nunez. Wade *consistently* overpaid in trades for middle -relief, giving away whatever we had on the farm.

Gillick's record of trade so far has been spotty, but no more than wade's. How much do we now have to show for the schilling and rolen trades? defenders of both trades say that we were forced into them by the players, just as some say gillick was forced into the abreu trade. none of those deals make either GM look like brain surgeons.

Bill Ripken?

don't forget about Tim Worrell...

Oisin, that's my point, if Wade was so bad why is Gillick no better. What real prospects did Wade give up? Alfredo Simon, Elizardo Ramirez, Taylor Buchholz, and Carlton Loewer? Even Carlos Silva has had an average career so far, 11-15 5.94 era in 2006. I do believe that with Padilla here last year instead of Gavin Floyd that the Phillies would have made the playoffs.

You guys forgot the best one

Vince Dimaggio

Right now, it looks good keeping him, but one reason Burrell couldn't be moved is b/c his high contract and limited no trade clause, which was given to him by Wade. This might be off, but didn't Wade sign Burrell to the deal sooner than necessary? Which is why PG doesn't want to jump too soon with a long term for Howard.

not fair to bring the 1940s Phillies into the discussion. compared to those teams, this is the Golden Era of Phillies baseball...

The significance of the Garciaparra move is, who has been removed from the 40-man roster to make room for him?

Parker: ae, BedBeard and several others made my point about Pelfry better than I did. He is NOT in any way comprabale to Mathieson. He's one of the top pitching prospects in baseball. Mathieson was an average prospect, not more than the 4th or 5th best pitching prospect in the Phillies system. I do agree that pitchers are less predictable than position players and even a stud like Pelfrey could flop.

Clout: I could be imagining it, but I "thought" Yoel Hernandez was on the 40-man roster. He's no longer listed. I could be wrong.

Just to go back to a few things from last night:

I agree that Bourn should be used as a defensive replacement, *but not in the sixth inning.*

By replacing Burrell with Bourn, you're bascially saying, "okay, it's going to be a tight one, here we go." I'm a big fan of the Earl Weaver school, which means never letting up on a team. This is exactly the kinf of passive managing that I hate about Manuel.

I do like defense, and the shift from Burrell to Bourn is about as great an improvement as possible. However, I would only sub in Bourn as either a pinch runner in the 7th inning on or in a double switch.

The nice thing about the double switch is it get Bourn into a more conforatable spot in the lineup. Also, the 5 spot behind Howard becomes a wilcard, and the Phils can pinch hit.

Last night Bourn did a fantastic job against Feleciano, but I can't believe after all the talk about protection for Howard, that we want Bourn hitting behind him in late, close games. Who knows what Burrell would have done in the 7th last night, but I think anyone has to concede he has a better chance of putting the game away there than Bourn.

I've said it on here a million times, but Cholly does not put his players in the best position to succeed. If he continues to do what he did last night, we are going to see Michael Bourn facing a tough LOOGY in crucial situations all season.

I guess there are two way to win a game you are leading 5-2 in the 6th. One is to go all defense, and hold out for the win, sort of like the prevent defense in football. The other is to keep the pedal to the floor and turn a close game into a rout. I favor the latter.

kdon, I think we should be double switching Bourn too. he's great for the 9-spot - gives you on-base ability to turn the lineup over and hopefully puts someone on for Rollins. it's unfortunate we don't have a power threat on the bench to PH in the 5-spot, because that would be ideal.

I love this latest classic Phillies "sign the scrubby brother of the star player" acquisition.
Do not forget that the Phillies also drafted Gavin Floyd's brother in the same draft that they selected him as the #1 pick.

Don't forget Michael Dubee.

KDon - Good points. I agree that Cholly still misses the boat on double switches and getting the best value out of his substitutions at times.

"This might be off, but didn't Wade sign Burrell to the deal sooner than necessary?"

If I remember correctly, I think it was a reaction to the Scott Rolen situation, where they wanted to show the fans that they were serious about locking up good young players to long term deals.

Wasn't Abreu the reaction to Rolen?

DAve K,

Sorry, I thought you were suggesting that wade was better than gillick.

I still will take gillick over wade right now for several reasons: 1)he has been restocking a minor league without position players for too long 2)I prefer his approach to relief players in general - he recognises that they're a crapshoot, and errs on the side of bargain basement recovery projects. 3) I liked the looch move, I liked getting castro, I liked getting germano for cormier (I just hated lettting him go - dumb as F**K).

I was prepared to give him a by despite the atrocious start and a horrible dump because I think the signings he made last year were all about an older exec getting back into the game, and frankly not being very well prepared. This offseason was mixed *again* with the overpaying of eaton, the needless acquisition of barajas and not even looking at Iwamura. But he's shown a preparadness ot gamble on other players, and I think werth and dobbs will do well for us in their respective roles. the gamble with helms was fairly interesting and would look better if the iwamura option hadn't been there.

Put simply, gillick still has potential upside depending on whether his bargain-basement scrambling yields results. I'm unaccustomed to a GM trying to find under-utilised players and get them for below market value. In that regard at least, gillick is a breath of fresh air compared to wade.

that's a good point, Oisin. Gillick's strategy is pretty high risk in the short-term, although the lack of long-term contracts reduces your risk a little on that side (although Eaton is a notable exception, and you could argue that trading away prospects for one-year rentals is just as bad).

I agree that it's generally a good strategy for bench players and relievers, where generally luck plays a big role and the worst case scenario isn't really that bad. what's problematic is that I think this strategy really requires your base to be strong. that's obviously not the case in the bullpen, and that's one reason where I think Gillick's risk calculations were off.

"Wasn't Abreu the reaction to Rolen?"

After doing some research, looks like you're right. Abreu was signed to the deal in 2/2002, which was before Rolen was traded (but after he had turned down the extension). Burrell was signed to his deal a year later (after the signings of Thome, Bell, Wolf and the Millwood trade).

One thing that I did find interesting, especially when you think about the Rollins "team to beat" quote was this:

"All the pieces are in place," Burrell added. "Now it's up to us.

"We've got to be the team to beat."

Nice find StJoeHawk! (even thought as a former LaSalleExplr, I don't like to give St. Joe's any credit)

How has he restocked the minors with position players? Name one legitimate prospect. C J Henry? They are all old players that are no longer considered prospects. You mention Looch, he was a one year rental. Are you trying to tell me that Burrell, Rowand, Victorino, Werth, Dobbs and Bourn is a good outfield?
Let's face it, the bullpen sucks, the outfield is weak, they have a 6th starter who has no interest in relieving. I guess Atlanta didn't think relievers are a crapshoot when they traded Adam Laroche. You liked Germano but Gillick let him go. Why did we need an "older exec who needs to get himself back in the game"? I'm not saying Wade was good I am saying Gullick is no better and that we have the worst GM in the National East.


Jason can go on at length at the dearth of minor league position players. These aren't guys who are necessarily going to help in the majors, but signings like the garciaparra one *are* about putting half decent minor-league players in and keeping the minor-league teams ticking over (at the very least). We've had nothing in position terms for a long time now, and that drafting strategy can be laid directly at the feet of the old braintrust. Arbuckle is good at scouting and developing first round picks and high-school pitchers, but as I understand it, we've had precious little else - the chris coste's of this world to for younger players to play with in the minors for a while now

We got looch for one year, and we're getting supplemental draft picks for him because we couldn't resign him. Pretty good value for tejeda, in my book, a player with moxie and a terrible tendency to walk guys.

Nice to have traded a position player from depth for the braves. I'm chuffed. Phillies strength is in young pitching prospects, not position players, most of him are sitting at A and AA this year, so of less use to a team that wants pitching now. This offseason trading pitching for pitching has been hard. It's possible that gillick was pushing for too hard a deal on both rowand and lieber and that's why they're still here. but they were the only two guys we were in a possession to trade for. If gillick pushed for too much rather than too little, and then decided to sit on things, fine.

Is gillick the worst in the NL East? Nope, I'd say Jim Bowden is. Beinfest is some kind of fleecing genius, scheurholz is steady as ever, minaya has a lot of money but does seem to have been working on the minors in the last two years and that may be paying off.

Last year was gillick's first draft. get back to me in spring 2008 and I'll tell you whether he's definitely been good or bad for the phillies. for now, I'm saying mediocre.

Adrian Cardenas

phanatics brother

Nah, he sucks.

If I were you guys, I'd be looking at Pat Gillick's drafts and trying to figure out which team he's going to move to next, since that's the team he's really drafting them for.

Okay, just kidding, but it's a bit strange to see him claim Little Garciaparra...

Mike Grace.

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