Part of CSNPhilly.com


« Baseball notes: John Smoltz gets new contract | Main | Feel-good win brings out the best in Phillies »

Friday, April 27, 2007

Comments

Lineups

Rowand moves up to 6 hole with Helms sliding to 7th spot. Ruiz catching tonight.

Phils
1. J Rollins, SS
2. S Victorino, RF
3. C Utley, 2B
4. R Howard, 1B
5. P Burrell, LF
6. A Rowand, CF
7. W Helms, 3B
8. C Ruiz, C
9. F Garcia,P

Fish
1. H Ramirez, SS
2. D Uggla, 2B
3. M Cabrera, 3B
4. M Jacobs, 1B
5. J Willingham, LF
6. C Ross, RF
7. M Olivo, C
8. A Amezaga, CF
9. A Sanchez, P

Compelling pro-Thome arguments in the previous HOF thread. Good points. McGwire wouldn't get my vote, either, even without the scandal. When it comes to HOF, I'm definitely conservative. There's no chance Bruce Sutter would have gotten my vote. That selection was weak.

What's weak is that Sutter is somehow in and Gossage is not. As clout would say: Please explain.

I had said that it made no difference whether Rowand hit sixth or seventh, but I guess Charlie Manuel thinks it does. Helms didn't help himself by forgetting the outs yesterday, and then committing yet another error. I keep saying he'll hit, and he is over .300, but the truth is that he's been looking more like a seventh-place hitter than the fifth-place hitter I thought he was coming out of spring training.

I agree, that was a nice discussion. Only points: Pedro and Frank THomas should *definately* be in. Thomas is 15th in lifetime OPS+. No, not active, but ever. Right between Stan Musial and Hank Greenberg.

Thome needs two more good seasons after this year. I agree, 550+ and he is a lock.

BTW, the radar looks good! Should be no problem with the game.

Bruce Sutter being elected is a joke. Goose Gossage was the man for many years and so was Lee Smith for that matter.

Rowand deserves to be bumped up a spot in the order. You know I all love to point out Manuel's mistakes, but this is a case where he shows he truly is a "players' manager" and awards a player for performing. I'm cool with that.

One fascinating thing about Sutter:

In only 12 years, he finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 5 times! And 4 times in the Top 5 for Cy Young (and one #6).

Gossage: In 18 years, 2 top 10 in MVP, 4 in top 5 (and one #6).

Just for comparison's sake, Mariano Rivera has only been in the top 10 for MVP twice (both at #9).

While I've never thought of Sutter as a Hall guy, it's clear that sportswriters at the time thought he was one of the best players in the game in the late 70s and early 80s.

But, no, I don't think he should be in.

Lee Smith? Gimme a break. Let him in, and every rubber-armned reliever gets in. The only way you can argue for Smith is to argue that "saves" are a legitimate metric to judge baseball performance. And there just ain't no way anyone can convince me that the "save" is a legitimate stat.

MUTS SHOTTING UP: Potential steroid break coming out of, guess who: THe Muts clubhouse from 1985-1996, apparenly somebody working in their clubhouse was distributing steroids to MLB players. Always good news when it is bad news for the Muts. Maybe that Ho Jo 5'9, 40 HR power was not all natural.The only thing better would be to hear that John Smoltz was arrested trying to smuggle Cuban cigars into the US after signing that conract. (MAybe somebody has mentioned this earlier but I didnt see it. Just thought that y'all would be interested to hear it).

Garcia: Well, I was going to type that I hope he has a good night tonight, but as I was typing Cabrera hit a HR. That bastard. I still hope that he has a good rest of the night (Better type faster).

Personally, I've always failed to grasp why using a steroid constitutes cheating, though certainly a case can be made for banning them due to the health risks associated with their use.

Oops Shooting up there:

Announcers: Can anyone tell me why I never see the Phillies announcers on this MLB Extra Innings Package? A lot of y'all bash on the Phillies TV guys, but they have got to be better than these knuckleheads for the Marlins.

MLB.TV gives you the Phils announcers most of the time. I'm enjoying Harry right now.

Parker, that can't be right. Everyone knows the late-'80s Mets were model citizens.

Eeesh. Garcia looks really shaky out there.

Rev, where are you watching from?

Whew that was big.

New Brunswick New Jersey

Eeesh is right. How soon until we wake up and read a Marcus Hayes piece on Garcia getting an MRI?

Maybe it is my location.

Holy crap, Rowand is Mr. Clutch (I know Kdon, Clutch is BS).

ATTA BOY A-ROW!!!

Wow. Rowand hasn't just shut me up, he's got duct tape over my mouth.

Never expected average and power from Rowand in "bunches" like this.

Wow, Rownad is in such a zone! On the 2-0 pitch, Sanchez threw it high and tight and Rowand didn't even flinch.

That AB made hitting a home run look like the easiest thing in the world.

Parker, not sure that bases empty in a 1-0 game in the 2nd inning is a "clutch" situation.

Damn, the bottom of the lineup is producing! Bye bye black hole (at least when Barajas is on the bench).

Wow. This lineup looks so much better with Ruiz in the 8 hole, compared to Nunez in that spot last year.

F-GAR with the S-FLY. ¡whoop it up and whoop it out!

Rowand has a 15-game hitting streak. I just shudder to think what happens to our offense when all these players playing over their heads slow down.

Kdon, I know that you know this, but you have to give consideration to the fact that Sutter and Gossach pitched in very different roles than today's closers. I would totally agree that the typical, 1 inning closer of today, does not deserve to be in the Hall. I think that it is different when you have a guy that comes in and pitches 3 innings and shuts people down. That is really what closing a game is. In fact I really dont understand why no pitcher can do that these days. How can a guy pitch 6-9 innings as a starter but relievers are good for only one or two tops? Is it that they are just not as good or is it just that managers have become so accustomed to it that they are unwilling to change their ways?

Ruiz and Garcia RBI's while I was typing. Awesome!!!

Exactly Paker, that's why they are both more valuable than guys like Smith or even Hoffman. Rivera at his peak was a 2 inning guy, so I would put him in the elite group, but the save collectors? Nope.

Kdon, as I said, clutch is BS. I dont believe in it, but he has hit HR to tie games 2 of the last 3 games. I dont think it has anything to do with clutch, but if you ever were going to call something clutch, then I guess it would have to be something that ties a game. Rowand has hit HR in the last 3 games in a row, hasn't he?

Phils are going to need to score 6 or 7 runs to win tonight. Garcia's stuff is pretty mediocre and he will be gone by the 5th.

Sosa, Teixeria, Wilkerson just homered all in the same inning.

Gossage is spelled Gossage, not Gossach, just so you know. I think the reason that relievers are only asked to go one inning is not that your average reliever has less stamina or is just not as good, but because the strain of pitching several innings night after night could lead to injuries. Therefore, pitchers who are used frequently are used briefly. Now, if you're a team that doesn't have many save opportunities, like us so far this season, we either are down going into the 9th or are up by more than a couple runs, I wonder if using, say, Myers to make a 2 or 3 inning save might not be a better plan than using guys who aren't so good to get to him. But then what if you end up needing him the next night and the night after that? I think the specialization of bullpen roles is a trend that will continue for the forseeable future.

Memo to Howard: stop swinging at sh*t.

Memo to Helms: When you get a 3-0 green light, you should NEVER swing at a ball!

Tray, another reason is the invention of the save stat itself. Before that stat, there was little percieved difference for managers in 3 run games and 4, 5, or 6 run games. If you were up 5-2 in the sixth, you could just bring in an OK pitcher for the last few innings. Now, you use your top three guys,s everytime the lead is 3 or fewer.

If you don't use your closer in "save siutuation" and the team blows the game, the manager gets ripped. If you don't use your best pitcher in a tie game, hardly anyone notices.

Gossage, Gossach. Pelfry, Paltry, whats the difference? You knew what I meant.

Sac fly and infield single by Garcia?

Move Ruiz to 7th, Garcia to 8th, and Helms to 9th!

My concern with Garcia at this point would be that, while he pitches his way out of jams and manages not to let up many runs, he gets into so many jams in the first place and takes so many pitches to get people out that his pitch count is invariably too high to let him go more than 5 innings. Today he's thrown 82 through 4, last time he threw 89 through 5, in his first start he threw 95 through 4 and two-thirds. That could just be a fluke/small sample though.

Does anyone else feel like Tim Wakefield is pitching this game for the Phils.

Hopefully Tray, at some point Garcia will remember how to throw his fastball for a strike.

A lot of the talk has been that he doesn't throw as hard, but it seems the reason he is throwing so many off-speed pitches (and hence, high pitch counts) is that he cannot throw his fastball over the plate.

Garcia has no arm anymore and has been getting by on junk.

Garcia's stuff has been pretty awful tonight. Frankly, I was hoper that he would be a break through with a stronger outing tonight.

Garcia can't locate a single off-speed pitch and has been behind to almost batter tonight. Plus, Garcia's fastball has had nothing on it. Give Garcia a D tonight.

Well so long as people swing and miss at his junk that's alright with me. But he needs to be pulled right now, he's lost his location.

I've always thought it's best to bring in your most effective reliever in the 5th inning.

Doubt Myers will be pitching an occasional 8th inning for long.

Malcolm, I would have used Geary there. In fact, my rule would be to always bring Gas Can in mid inning and allow wild pitchers like AA to start innings. If ALfonseca actually was a good pitcher, that would have been the right move.

Can't remember the last time a Phils pitcher had such a poor, short outing as Garcia did tonight yet strikeout nearly 10 batters. Strange outing.

We're just a strange ballclub period. And I don't mind them using our "best reliever" in that situation, the only problem is, strong start notwithstanding, he really isn't our best reliever. Oh well, it was time for the real Alfonseca to show up.

The image of Alfonseca on deck with his helmet and batting gloves just made my night. He had no idea what to do with the bat.

One of the worst sights this year is 3 Phillies on base.

"Weird" is right. The best pitcher on the team is comming into a game in the sixth inning. I hope Manuel stretches him out for two, maybe three innings.

Sorta raises the question whether you best pitcher ought be be trying to pitch an inning or 3 in the middle of a losing effort or 6 or 7 innings at the beginning...

Waddya mean curt? Myers just got us out of a bases loaded jam. His move to the pen and Manuel's speech have changed the "attitude" of this franchise forever!

For the statistically inclined among us, there's a great site called firejoemorgan.com that lampoons sportswriters (and Joe Morgan) for believing in clutch and Dave Eckstein being a great player and momentum and things of that nature. It's actually awfully funny.

As for our bullpen roles, there's something to be said about using your better relievers early when you're down a run - you don't want to fall behind any further than you already are. But then, the counterargument would be, what happens if you get the lead, who are you left with?

Read 'for' in the place of 'about.'

firejoemorgan is great Tray.

"what happens if you get the lead, who are you left with?"

This isn't such a bad problem. WIthout question, it's better to use good pitcher when down a run then when you are up 3.

I don't think Manuel knows this, however. The only reason we are seing AA and Myers is because they haven't pitched in a while.

"Attitude" won't pitch 4-5 innings for this team every night.

After these 2-3 innings Myers is burned for the rest of this series.

sweet. the nats beat the mets! cmon whelms.

Where's Bourn?

Unbelievable AB Helms!

no! not bourn now! and werth on deck!?! god, our bench worries me maybe more than our bullpen. cmon ruiz.

14 pitch at-bat?

HAVE to start the runners there! What the hell is Charlie thinking?

14 pitches, AND a hit?

Way to go Wes!

Madson looked like the Madson of old. The bullpen's looking better.

GONE!!!

Jimmy!

thoughts; nice toss carlos. im sick of the bourn for burrell pinch run esp in situations where we still need to WIN the game. i like how burrell wears the black t-shirt underneath his jersey. heading to philly tomorrow to take in the next two games. you can bet money ill be booing for barajas when he gets a start. i like coste off the bench in pinch hitting scenarios. lets go rockies beat the braves. show some fire phillies! lets go. thank you james rollins!

Watching the game on MLB Extra Innings – the Marlins' announcers just couldn't be worse. The Fish do no wrong, the Phils do no right. The only reason Jimmy has a homerun, apparently, is because he plays in the Bank. Never mind those HRs on the road, I guess.

God, I so hate broadcasters that have to be such blatent homers.

UTLEY!

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, Chase!

Holy Crap fellas, what a performance by J-Roll, and Uts. Lets just hope old Gordo can hang on to it. Please!!! No walks, just no freaking walks. I would rather see a HR off a perfectly placed fastball than a freaking walk and two bloop singles.

It may be time to try Jimmy at #4, and move Rowand up to #2. Take the load off Howard for awhile.

Crap Gordo.

Couldn't we just shoot Flash now and put him out of his (and our) misery? I'm so tired of the same performance over and over without Cholly doing anything different. Like, say, using Myers as the closer.

howd you like to see a first-pitch leadoff double the other way to put the tying run on 2nd?

Gillick guys Dobbs and Werth are absolutely *useless* as pinch hitters!

C-mon Gordo.

here we go now T-GOR!

Damn that Gordo!

beautiful

next closer, please.

Actually, I really wonder if Nunez gets that ball. Probably not.

Should we be surprised?

Seriously. How many more times does it have to happen? And why the hell isn't Nunez in as a defensive replacement? What's the point in having him if you're not going to sub him in a one-run game?

Pathetic.

Whoever was praising the Pen forgot that its not the Nats anymore...

Wow, that's tough. Flash has to shake it off and keep the game tied.

I'm following the game on MLB Gameday only -- what speed is Gordon topping out at with his fastball right now -- after blowing the save?

Kevin, so he can pinch hit later. (Seriously, just kidding).

Can someone explain the timing of the pinch-run for Burrell? I can see not running for him since we trailed by a run. I can see running for him since you play for a tie at home. But I can't, for the life of me, see not running for him when he's on first, but then putting Bourn in when he moves up to 2nd. Anybody?

Curt, the bullpen has been fine. Gordon on the other hand has been crappy. They have 15 hits and 5 runs, not bad. Pen has held them decently except for Old Man GOrdo.

Parker: I don't think Brooks effin Robinson catches that ball. It hugged the chalk, Helms was not guarding the line. An inch more and it's foul.

Sure glad we have Fabio back to take care of the extra inning(s).

Parket - honest to God, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. I wish Cholly was at least consistent in his illogic; at least I might be fooled into thinking that there was some thought behind it.

This team is going nowhere fast as long as he's at the helm. Hell, they might be going nowhere fast without him due to the bullpen, but losing Manual can't possibly hurt the team at this point, and it just might help.

Give up a run and then he is superman, unhittable. Who is next, Rosario. Has he pitched, I turned the game off for a while to work on a paper?

Parker: The bullpen has been fine LATELY. Let's not forget the first 14 games.

two words
Joe Borowski

pat gillick should have kept conine or delucci, we have NO BENCH.

To Gordon's credit, of all the saves he's blown, this one was probably pitched best.

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories

HardballTalk

Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel

CSG