Game chat: Phillies visit Reds for weekend set

The second half of Charlie Manuel's pitching experiment debuts tonight, as Jon Lieber, making his first start of the season, faces Kyle Lohse and the Cincinnati Reds tonight at 7:10 EST.

Summary: The Phillies will be without Ryan Howard again tonight. Howard is listed as day-to-day with a sprained ligament below his left knee ... Lieber is 0-0, 11.57 ERA on the season in two bullpen appearances, games that will not be included in the Lieber family scrapbook. Tonight's return to the starting rotation feels more like a season debut. The 37-year-old right-hander went 9-11 with a 4.93 ERA in 27 starts last season and was moved back into the rotation this week, replacing Brett Myers, who's now in the bullpen ... Loshe (1-0, 2.53) is coming off an eight-inning shutout against the Cubs ... The 8-8 Reds held the lead in their last two games going into the eighth inning and lost it both games.

Comments

[ae]

I don't like how we match up against Lohse. my expectations are not real high for this one.

[GM-Carson]

Negative Nancy- I don't like how we would match up against anyone. Jose Lima could shut us down right now. Yet another pitiful loss.

Hopeful Hope- This offense is going to have a huge inning (6+ runs) and all of a sudden things will seem to click and then there's no looking back...playoffs here we come.

[Tim]

the only reason i want lieber to succeed tonight is so he has some value when we trade him. then this long national nightmare can end and i can go back to my regularly scheduled life.

[Billy Mac]

Tonight's lineup

Nunez gets the start at 3b, batting 7th

Phils
1. J Rollins, SS
2. S Victorino, RF
3. C Utley, 2B
4. P Burrell, LF
5. W Helms, 1B
6. A Rowand, CF
7. A Nunez, 3B
8. C Ruiz, C
9. J Lieber, P

Reds
1. R Freel, CF
2. A Dunn, LF
3. B Phillips, 2B
4. J Hamilton, RF
5. E Encarnacion, 3B
6. S Hatteberg, 1B
7. A Gonzalez, SS
8. D Ross, C
9. K Lohse, P

[Tray]

How could you not like how we match up against Lohse, ae, he's a flyball pitcher who gives up plenty of homeruns, pitching in a tiny stadium. Ever since 2004 he's been pretty awful and we shouldn't be too discouraged by a couple good starts on his part.

[bathtubhippo]

i'd feel better if nunez weren't starting.

[The Iron Pig]

Why is Nunez "batting" 7th and Ruiz 8th?

[bathtubhippo]

love it. i think it should be a blog-wide requirement that nunez is always described as at "bat" or maybe even "with bat"

[curt]

It's Friday and damnit I'm not gonna suffer just this once...bring on Schill vs the Yanks

[Chris]

I was about to launch into my usual rant about Rowand's need to bat second and that Victorino needs to be sunk into the black hole, but after comparing the two OBP's, AVG's, and Walks, the difference is almost negligible. I guess I can't complain just quite yet and should rant after the game is over.

[Parker]

Batters facing Kyle Lohse are batting at a higher average than random dudes trying to pick up Paris Hilton at a bar. Nonethesless, lame pitchers have a way of looking good early in the season, and particularly against the Phils.

Interesting derivatives of Lohse:
1.) Drop an "h"=Lose (Best one in my opinion)
2.) Sheol (Hebrew: underworld, abode of the dead) (Perhaps that could be the LF bleachers, where Pat the Bat could be sending a few screamers)
3.) Hosel (Entry point of shaft of golf club to the clubhead) (Putting the shaft to him would be nice)
4.) Holes (Hopefully there are many in his game)
5.) Ho-sel (Um, ok)
6.) Ho-les (Maybe more applicable)

[THe Dude]

Ok Pat was up in the 4th and I was expecting a K but instead I heard another installment of the "Sargeism" column. Back in the day Jayson Stark used to have a Sunday line for Ralph Kiner's idiot remarks and call them "Kinerisms"

Sarge says that getting walks helps your batting average!!! LOL

[Crazy Jon]

Phils get bases loaded and 1 out - almost guaranteed that they will hit into a double play.
Reds will probably score in the bottom of the 4th to add insult to injury.

[p-style]

Wow, just as the reds announcers bring up our 2-20 stat with bases loaded; Nunez grounds into a terrible double play and ends the inning...

I think we're at the point that any time there are bases loaded, the batter should have to take every pitch and hope to walk in the run (a la our lone RBI in that horrible mets game)...

[madubbs]

Nunez is the worst, i wish i was a betting man, i would have went all in that he would have hit into a double play, he is the worst! Lunges at every pitch..hmmm
Charlie now y again did you put nunez at the 7 spot and ruiz at the 8 spot!

commical

[THe Dude]

wow 2 installments of "Sargeism" within an half hour...he said the signing of Alex Gonzalez (in the offseason) freed up the Reds to trade Felipe Lopez last year to the Nats...HUH!!! LOL

Can someone please explain why Larry is no longer on TV but Sarge is on the air for all nine innnings?

[clout]

I was a bit surprised myself to see Nunez hitting ahead of Ruiz. BTW, for those not watching, Nunez's swing on that DP was just awful.

[fljerry]

Well there goes the idea of Nunez being the defensive fielder. He just made an error

[THe Dude]

Sargeism #3...The umpire and Ross were lucky not to get hit by Dunn's flying bat on a swing and miss

ok I guess its easy to confuse Ross and Ruiz since they both start with R.

[fljerry]

Can't believe they don't let him finish the inning? (Lieber) 2 outs and he only has given 1 hit.

[The Other Kevin]

Christ, Cholly is a moron. Certainly wouldn't want to stay away from the bullpen, especially with a guy pitching a one-hitter. Nope, sure wouldn't.

[Greg S]

What the hell? 64 pitches, 2 outs, 1 hit. Take him out?!

[madubbs]

What is charlie doing!!!! leiber has allowed two hits all game, understandably his first start of the year but regardless....how come we the fans can realize that he is the worst manager but the phillies refuse to believe it!

[thrillhouse26]

geary for 1 batter?
am i reading that wrong?
Wow

[bathtubhippo]

it's important to show confidence in your pitcher when he has a 1-hitter going

[Malcolm]

What the hell? If the excuse is Lieber is on a pitch count, I'm going to throw something against a wall.

[fljerry]

pitch count maybe so, but I believe he will be at bat next inning, so he would be pinchedhit. He may pitch only a few extra pitches.

[The Other Kevin]

Honest to God, this might be the worst bullpen I've ever seen. They are a cruel joke.

[bathtubhippo]

yeah especially since the pitch count was followed oh-so-closely for garcia the other night. we might as well give up now that matt "i am sexually attracted to issuing walks" smith is in the game.

[Malcolm]

Fire him NOW.

[clout]

Anyone think the Phillies needed to get a reliever this off-season, ideally a lefty? kdon?

[Malcolm]

Let's see:

Starter: 1 hitter through 5 2/3
Solution: Take him out, use at least 3 relievers before the 8th inning.

Again I say, fire him NOW.

[fljerry]

Well now they wasted 2 relief pitchers, thats the 3rd one coming in

[bbned]

Inexcusable. Again not playing to win. Removal of Lieber there on a hard pitch count does not make sense. You have to give him the opportunity to get that 3rd out regardless.

[The Other Kevin]

Let me qualify that – except for Alfonseca. He is, thus far, having a nice season. Must be a lonely guy.

[clout]

Malcolm: Don't read this. Wheels just said they lifted Lieber because of his pitch count.

[bathtubhippo]

maybe we could carry 17 pitchers this year and just dispense with the bench altogether.

[Malcolm]

Bathtubhippo: Considering Hamels has a better OBP than the entire bench, I wouldn't mind that.

[bsg]

i"m waiting for sarge to call j-roll , j-lo!!!!!!!!

[clout]

Is it true Brian Cashman bought Pat Gillick a Mercedes s65 AMG soon after the Abreu for Matt Smith trade?

[bathtubhippo]

clout, abreu was a clubhouse, cancer and matt smith is an A-level prospect as well as the anchor of our fine, elite bullpen, and i won't stand for you disparaging him in this manner!!

[kells]

The Dude:I'm also baffled that in his first year Sarge is on for 9 innings. He must have pics of someone at Comcast. Larry had great chemistry w/ Kalas-he's a bad fit on radio especially when he does play by play.
Manuel used 3 pitchers in the top of the 7th inning once Lieber was pulled w/ 2 outs Unbelievable! After a K-I think Lieber could make it through 1 more out. I'll be curious to see if Flash throws a curve in the 9th. As Stark said-somethings going on. It's good to see that Pelfrey is getting hit hard by the Braves. Mets pitching has to cost them eventually.

[clout]

kells: Good point. Phils management can't even get the announcers right.

[bsg]

even harry says it will be intersting to see what cholly does with the bullpen, even they are like W.T.F.?

[MG]

Removing Lieber in that spot was puzzling but I can see him being on a strict pitch count. Lieber needs to build up his arm strength a bit and was probably on a 70-75 pitch count max.

[clout]

When six-finger throws strikes, he's tough.

[MG]

Hate to beat a dead horse but I hate Nunez play. Can't even play decent defense tonight. Completely worthless.

[BloodStripes]

The Octopus aint too bad. Another decent inning of work.

Come on Phils. Tack on a few more.

[The Other Kevin]

So tell me again why Myers isn't our closer?

[Tray]

Count me a fan of the Myers experiment.

[clout]

So far Cholly looks like a genius on the Myers move

[fljerry]

When is the last time Bourne has gotten a hit?

[bathtubhippo]

still loving these 9th inning bourn ABs.

[clout]

MG: Going back to Tomas Perez, the Phillies have had one of the worst utility infielders in baseball in each of the past 7 years.

[The Other Kevin]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day...

[bathtubhippo]

at least tomas perez had pie appeal. what does nunez give you?

[bsg]

now only if could we score with R.I.S.P. and if they get 1 more win on this road trip, cholly's job is probably safe, even if they dropped the next 2 i'm sure they wouldn't do anything and with howard being out for 2 or 3 games they could use that has an excuse

[TJ]

just because he's doing a good job in the setup role still doesn't mean the myers thing was the right thing to do.

[clout]

The only time I've ever seen Nunez not swing at the first pitch is when it's in the strike zone.

[Dave X]

Two good relief appearances, he's practically the new Mariano Rivera, isn't he guys.

[Tray]

Stark claims that the Myers move was actually a Gillick call, clout - don't know if I believe that. But anyway, should we hold onto Lieber, I think Myers and Gordon may switch spots at some point. Though you could argue the setup role is just as or more important than the closer's. At least the way Manuel uses his closers, they never are asked to come into the game with runners on base - that being the case, it might be best to use Myers in a role where he can strand inherited runners, not one where all he's asked to do is pitch a scoreless inning.

[The Other Kevin]

Dave X - Nope, not Mariano Rivera yet. But he sure is better than the rest of the garbage in our bullpen.

Speaking of which, get ready to do some nail-biting through this one.

[Tray]

No nails bitten so far. And Tomas was nowhere near as useless as Nunez.

[The Other Kevin]

Man, I really hate being right. The bullpen is just flat-out depressing.

[bsg]

Shocking!!!!!!!!!!!!, thanks flash

[clout]

Very bad location on that pitch.

[Josh M]

I think the time for the switch is here, Tray.

[bathtubhippo]

...

[fljerry]

Can you believe this - and we don't have any decent relievers left

[thom]

did flash just lose his job?

[bsg]

what's the saying good teams find ways to win and bad teams find ways to lose!!!!

[Tray]

Maybe Madson will be good again today....

[bathtubhippo]

sure glad we used 3 relievers to get 1 out a few innings back!

[That Dude]

If Myers is gonna be in the pen I think it's time he become the closer. Nuff Said.

[Chris]

Tom Gordon is out as closer. I will be on a hunger strike until Myers becomes the new closer.

[Inky's Cousin]

Funny, I'm not even surprised anymore.

[madubbs]

I SAW THAT COMING A MILE AWAY, come on now we are philadelphia,

i think i may jump off a bridge tonight

WTF

[Mike Cunningham]

Well that makes the Myers move to the bullpen a little smarter doesn't it.

[PhilsFanCryingInChicago]

Smith-must go to the minor
Nunez-sent to jail with Urbina

Gordon-make him the set-up man

Charile-see Nunez

Another loss

The above mentioned people have lost 6 or the ten

[clout]

This guy Coutlangus is the kind of lefty Gillick should've been looking for in the off-season. The Reds got him on waivers from the Giants.

[THe Dude]

fundamentals ....what fundamentals? Rollins gets hit by a pitch and common sense says that Victorino should take a few pitches to maybe allow Jimmy to get into scoring position but what does the Flyin' Hawaian do? First pitch double play...now Gordon in for a 2nd inning...GAME OVER...

[TJ]

boy am I sick of these extra innings games

[Parker]

I cant believe that, I didnt see the pitch but I did see that Hatteberg is hitting .460 on 3-1 counts. Maybe Flash should have done his homework, and not served it up on a tee.

[madubbs]

TD
i couldn't have said it any better myself....game set match...you sure you still want to stay with charlie, PAT

[bsg]

or P.B. maybe could have scored earlier in the game on the drop hit into L.F.?

[Parker]

Look, I want Manual out as much as anybody, but how is Gordon throwing the softball Manuals fault? Oh god Conine the Barbarian up and probably wants revenge.

[THe Dude]

bsg - for all the ripping that Burrell goes through you can't really blame him personally for any of these loses. He's not hitting for power but he's getting on base and he certainly is not a reliever. The pen has lost I think 7 games after our fabulous closer blows it here in the 10th.

[bathtubhippo]

god, can we put hamels in here??

[The Other Kevin]

Something has got to be done here – this season is very, very close to spiraling out of control here. I can't possibly see how Cholly is going to survive the next off day.

[inky]

It looks being safe with Gordon in spring training is really working out well for the Phils now. He has as much command as Gavin Floyd.

This is a real bad time to be a phillies fan.

[The Other Kevin]

Yep, there you go. Yet another crushing defeat. I simply don't know what to say anymore.

[Parker]

Screw Gordo, if they let this bum continue to be the closer, it is only because of absolute denial of the obvious.

[bsg]

It does go back to fundamentals, i know he's no speed demon but its the small things done right that can make or break a game, just having these guys in the right frame of mind. he's not the enitire problem but he has to take the fall!! great 0-4 in extra innings!!!

[clout]

Gordon has no command on his curve ball. This may be why he hasn't been throwing it.

[Parker]

is the game actually over, I have to watch the Gamecast?

[Inky]

This game should have never been a one run game in the ninth. It should never have been close enough for Gordo to blow it....

When is the first game for the Eagles?

[madubbs]

I am done, this was the icing on the cake..

the team has no heart, no desire to win, if they don't care, then y should I

[clout]

A post on one of the earlier threads raised a question about Gordon's health. His fastball looks as good as ever, but he can't locate his breaking stuff at all. he threw 2 hangers to Phillips and the second one was the winning hit. The HR pitch to Hatteberg was a fastball belt-high over the plate. You can't throw that to a lefthanded hitter. It will be terminated with extreme prejudice.

[The Other Kevin]

Should I feel better that I just watched Mariano Rivera blow a save, giving up a two-run triple to Coco Crisp? Somehow, I don't.

[Parker]

I cannot express my feelings of dissapointment with Gordon. How many blown saves is this, 3? Three in 15 games. He has been damn near 5, and only lucked out in those other 2. If you dont make Myers the closer at this point, you have to make Alfonseca the closer. Somebody has to do it other than Gordo. I have infintely more confidence in Madson than Gordon right now, but that is not saying much.