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Monday, March 19, 2007


depending on your criteria for "vanishing into nothing", let us not forget julio santana, alex gonzalez, and alfredo simon, who ended up costing the phils money to come in and get shelled for a few weeks.

In the interest of conserving space and time, I limited my criteria to Gillick trades. Otherwise, I'd still be writing, probably hitting scouting-favorite Matt Kata about now.

at least Ricardo Rodriguez was actually terrible. I still think Germano would have been a better relief option than any of the guys listed above. (Segovia and Bisenius IMO are not ready for the majors.)

This is why the Phils haven't been to the playoffs in 12 years.

Sorry, make that 13.

Jason, Cormier was *not* a LH specialist! He was far more effective against right-handed batters in recent years. Lefthanded batters hit better against him 4 out of the last 6 years!

I wonder if the Germano release means Condrey is going to make the team. I kind of thought they would keep one of the two guys with options, because they don't have the depth to just let these guys go.

kdon: meh. whatever.

Sorry, that should say "without options".

If the mood is not favorable towards Gillick today, I am not inclined to disrupt it. Here's a quote from PG that burns me up: "I don't know if he [Lieber] can pitch out of the bullpen or not," Gillick said. "That's up to Charlie and [pitching coach Rich] Dubee to make that determination."

That's the ticket, Pat: fail to compile a satisfactory balance of starters and relievers, and then just have the field guys sort it out while you moan that there's no relievers available. Meanwhile, make sure you don't actually have them pitch Lieber in relief during the spring, to see how he handles it.

I seethed when I read that bit about Hermanson on the last thread. What would have been the risk *there* - or with Borowski, who has a zero ERA in four appearances for the Indians this spring - as compared to Alfredo Simon, Jim Ed Warden, Kane Davis, ad nauseum? If Gillick is gun-shy about physicals, why did he go after Jayson Werth? This man has been puzzling since day one and he continues to be puzzling. It is hard not to agree with Bill Conlin's assessment that this team is good for yet another mid-80's wild-card chase. The leash on Gillick ought to be getting shorter here.

You're right Jason, the Phils do need another lefthanded specialist that can't get lefthanders out.

Either Gillick has some "magical grand plan" that will make us all look like a bunch of idiots with the second guessing, or he's about 1 or 2 more bad moves from the Ed Wade treatment until he rides off into the sunset.

Vincente Padilla- given away for nothing

Rheal Cormier- given away for nothing

I hate that! Just me, but you would think these guys could net a least a prospect that could stay in our system for a few years.

Alfonseca has been ineffective so far, why cut Germano. He actually seem fairly good. This team looks like it needs 2 RPs. Brito may help but that means Castro who has struggled will start in the minors. But if Bisenus or Sergovia can pitch effectively then put them on the team. They both have a great upside. They both are good enough to be future stars, it just maybe too early for them in the majors.

Padilla might be a different story, but does anyone think they could've gotten anything worth shaking a stick at for Cormier? I understand the frustration, but let's not inflate Cormier's value.

Let's not forget the Abreu deal as long as we aren't singing Gillick's praises.

Tom, how could you?

Same. Old. Phillies.

Basically we traded Padilla, Abreu, Lidle, and Cormier for Matt Smith. The core of this team is guys drafted or brought in by Ed Wade. The minor league system is an embarassment. His bench/bullpen additions are a TOTAL complete waste...A Gonzalez, Fasano, Rhodes, Franklin, etc. Thank god Howard hit 58 or else this team would have won 75 games last year. And they repay him by giving him 900,000. What a joke.

What could the Phils have gotten for Abreu? I'm trying to remember back when the trade was about to happen. Were there other suitors? Yanks weren't going to give up Hughes. Not taking PG's side, just want to hear options. Abreu was addition by subtraction.

"...but does anyone think they could've gotten anything worth shaking a stick at for Cormier? I understand the frustration, but let's not inflate Cormier's value."

Just wait a little bit. We're about to trade John Lieber for a Cormier clone and get hosed on another deal. It's like it already happened. See Arthur Rhodes and Ugeth Urbina trades. Gillick....worse than Wade? How many times did Wade take capable players and trade them for nothing? (actual question)

yeah, just a record-breaking contract that's all. the rest is a joke, but that 900,000 contract was fair to both sides.

for the last time, the abreu deal came down to leverage. everyone including cashman knew it. plus, we still have all four players we got back. please don't lump all that in with this kind of one-for-one, then-we-cut-the-guy deal. do we really need to kick that into gear again? are we this bored?

I thought Germano could've been useful, why cut him? He's better than Warden, that's for sure.

would the phillies have owed the white sox anything if they had picked up hermanson? wasn't hermanson a class A FA?

i was irked when phillies scouts saw a hermanson tryout and said that he wasn't anything special. he closed for a world series winning team with the same velocity. right now, the phillies bullpen needs a guy with the right mental makeup more than anything else and hermanson has that in spades. that said, it looks like the reds have a surplus of relievers if hermanson becomes their closer so maybe we can pick up one of their flameouts or trade for...wait for it...cormier.

but then again, i think spring training results is completely overblown for pitchers; we should wait until the all-star break to see if really need to bring in a big gun for the bullpen. like gordon says, they just need to get into rhythm, get their roles straightened out, and get the season underway. geary, madson, smith, alfonseca, and whoever else makes the bullpen will be better judged a month in.

Sorry, gr, but the Abreu deal wasn't mandatory at the time it was made. Gillick had all of THAT leverage.

How many more games do you think the Phils would have won last year if Padilla got all of Madsons/Floyds starts? Would they have made the playoffs?


I'm not talking about trading Lieber for a "Cormier clone". I want Linebrink. He's ain't Cormier. Lieber alone won't get him, though.

I agree Anonymous-Hermanson (or Borowski) would have done the trick.

What harm would there have been in keeping Germano around for another week or so? Put him in a couple of pressure situation and see how he responds. Isn't that what spring training is for? Heaven forbid Charlie actually has to have young players on his team... Instead the foolish Phillies put Germano on waivers entirely too early. Hell, if San Diego wanted him that bad, maybe we could have at least thrown him in the Rowand-Linebrink deal and gotten some kind of arm in return or at the very least sweetened the deal with him. How sad is it that I am not surprised about another deal that yields absolutely nothing...

Germano and Cormier suck. Let's not treat everyone like they're potential HOFers.

(not directed at you Jon, just some of the constant over-analyzation that goes on during Spring Training. Reading about Germano, I feel like I'm listening to 15 year old girls over analyzing about whether or not Billy likes them.)

Pretty infuriating. As Jon says, at the very least he could have been a trade sweetener... it really baffles me how so many teams supposedly need starting pitching, yet we can't give Lieber away and we do give Germano--who both was a good #7/#8 starter option and a potential bullpen contributor--away.

Did they think they could slip him through waivers today rather than a week or so down the road? This is just flat-out dumb, and very frustrating.

I would agree with Beard that cooler heads should prevail a little more. Last year, Madson and Floyd were the toast of spring, and by all accounts, the entire team looked ready. They started 10-14. A month ago, they were clear favorites to win the East. Today, not so much. Long, long, long, long, season ahead. Bullpen is unanimously scary. Not sure Germano was the answer. News of Hermanson has me upset. Right now, Eaton or Lieber are in bullpen.


The thing is, we DON'T want to give Lieber away. We're hoping to get someone serviceable for him (and/or other players). Just b/c the Padres picked up Germano doesn't meant they're in love with him. They're taking a flyer on him. That's it. I don't see him being much of a trade sweetner. Teams might want Happ or Bisenius as sweetner, not a guy who wasn't going to make the Phils bad bullpen.

Weitzel - I don't think anyone thought the Phils were clear favorites to win the East. I do think though that this team is a better team coming out of spring training this year compared to last year.

Point that most cleary demonstrates this is the Lieber was the opening day starter last year. Now, Lieber doesn't even have a spot in the starting rotation. Speaks a little about Lieber but the depth/quality of the starting rotation speak much louder.

Bedrosian's Beard: "Addition by subtraction" is one of your more idiotic statements. Please explain how giving quality players away for nothing helps the team.

Releasing Germano is really a headstratcher. Is Germano really that valuable or stood out in spring training this year?

No, but this organization doesn't actually have a dearth of arms to fill out the pen. The Phils might have best been served giving Germano a shot to fill the long-reliever slot of the bullpen. If he washed out, you try to pass him through waivers in May or June.

Also, you have to be amazed that the Phils traded away Cormier, Lidle, and Abreu yet they did not get a single player who will substantially help this team in 2007. That really is pathetic.

It was a salary dump Clout. The Phils did better without Abreu last year. Do the math. Would I have wanted someone better in return? Sure. Were we offered anything better in return? Unclear, but I don't remember so. Do I ask myself questions then answer them myself? Yes.

"Also, you have to be amazed that the Phils traded away Cormier, Lidle, and Abreu yet they did not get a single player who will substantially help this team in 2007. That really is pathetic."

that says it all. please, please, please let the "addition by subtraction" myth die an unlamented death.

Even though I used it, I'm fine with letting that phrase go. However, "salary dump" is a better one. That's all it was. I'm no Cormier supporter, and Lidle, God rest his soul, is doing anything for anyone. Even if he were alive, his numbers suck. Over the years, teams like the Expos/Nats and the Marlins have dumped salary and gotten nice pieces in return. However, for the most part, they traded GOOD players away. Lidle and Cormier are junk. Lieber is better than that, but not by much. Abreu's a heck of a player, but what other options were out there? Everyone was calling him "lazy" and "not a philly guy" etc. I'm fine with Victorino

By subtracting Abreu's salary, we were able to add Garcia's.

You want Abreu in right field every day and "Pink" Flyod on the mound every 5 days?

Or do you like your chances with Vic and Freddy better?

The Yankees will always be able to buy the best, if they hadn't given us little for Abreu, they would have bought him as a free agent, and we would have gotten nothing.

Lets try to keep things in perspective here. We gave up a guy who is now dead, and a guy who is heading to the DL, for next to nothing. I certainly would not have wished those results on anyone, but if you think that is the worst deal ever made, you are way off.

Seems to me that this whole mining for a diamond in the rough route has completley blow up in their faces and not unexpectedly.

I would think that particular strategy might work with batters/posistion players but the last thing its going to happen with is pitches. If a guy has a 6 era oneseason, chances are, he's going to be +- one point the next season and the next and the next. If a guy has bad stuff one year, unless he was dealing with some major injury, he's going to have bad stuff the next and the next and the next.

Hear Hear!

I'll take the pitching and the young talent.

Bedrosian's Beard: This is tired ground, already covered. The last 6 weeks of the season the Phils had the softest part of the schedule. The teams they played were something like a collection -15 games below .500. To say the Phils are better without Abreu is idiotic. Period. Had they kept him (and Padilla, God knows) for the soft part of the schedule they probably would've made the playoffs. It was a stupid mistake. And if Germano pans out, this is another stupid mistake.

yt: Why do you accept some kind of imaginary limit that says the Phillies are only allowed so many good players? Who says they couldn't have kept Abreu and signed Garcia too? And Floyd was starting because they traded Padilla. How'd you like that deal?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but with Lieber/Eaton in the bullpen, is there not merely one spot left in the bullpen, assuming that Gordon, Geary, Slim (Madson), Dozen Digit, and Smith are locks? Even given a Lieber trade, which seems only likely if another bullpen piece is acquired via that trade or another, is there still not only one spot available in the bullpen, as the final 2 jobs go to Lieber/Eaton/outside addition and the winner out of those already in camp.

This being the case, with Smith as the only lefty, would preference not be given to Castro and Brito (though I am not pulling for this scenario), especially considering both could double as long relievers and have done so at the major league level?

Yes Clout, the Phillies have unlimited money, and are going to start spending that way any minute now.

Also, I think Coste is perhaps more secure than many think he is, until his recent injury that is (assuming he doesn't recover quickly). The bench is likely at this point to include ruiz, nunez, werth, and dobbs (given his versatility and solid spring). That leaves Garcia and Coste battling for one spot. Yes it's nice to have another left handed hitter with power, but if Coste is considered the better hitter overall, and given their recent track records that could very well be the case, is he not more likely to make the team. The only reason I see the phillies bringing Garcia over Coste is because they would want him to play a significant amount of games in LF (not a platoon, but perhaps similar to the end of last year with Burrell, Connine, Roberson, and such). I don't see Garcia as a more valuable pinch hitter than Coste. He's not going to sub for Victorino in RF barring fatigue or injury, as Victorino is a switch hitter and a better player in every respect than Garcia (with arguably more power, Garcia's one asset). Garcia also will not be subbing for Rowand in center. Even given that he could play some in LF, is he really a better option than Dobbs in LF at this point.

Clout, you really think the Phils would have still gotten Garcia if they had Abreu? What's the precdent?

Padilla is another example of a lazy Phillie. Every scout says he's got a ton of talent and would be a super pitcher if he only cared. He was 16-19 with a 4.50ERA the 2 years prior. I don't blame them for getting rid of him.

I don't care who the Phils played at the end of last year, they still had to go out and win them.

no deal is mandatory, tom. that wasn't my point. it was the comparison to trading and then cutting that i am saying is off the mark. cormier for germano is nothing like the bobby deal and really shouldn't prompt any sortof comparison. two completely different types of deal for completely different reasons. each have their own reasons for stinking up the joint.

Coste also has better splits vs. Righties than Lefties.

I can't see Garcia making this team.

yt: Really? It would take a team with unlimited money to keep Abreu and still sign Garcia? What size market do the Phillies play in? Oh, that's right, we're in a small market. I forgot.

As for Padilla - He was traded because of "character issues" i.e. He was a stinking Drunk.

prbly why he isnt realizing potential.

Not much good happening for the Phillies, today. We need to have the season start, so that each game means something and each players good or bad outings mean something. I'm getting frustrated! Can't we find some castoff from the Twins or some team heavy in RP talent? Why lose Germano now? Maybe PG did Germano a favor, giving him a chance with another club with a few weeks of ST left for Germano to get settled.

Bedrosian's Beard: Yep, they still had to win 'em and even playing against weak teams, they couldn't quite do it. See those games against the Nationals. But it's sure a good thing they didn't have Abreu & Padilla, huh? Couldn't use those guys down the stretch, not when they had Jeff Conine and Rick White.

Joe: Not realizing his potential? Did you check the 2006 stats? Unless you think he's Walter Johnson reincarnated.

Yes the Phils have a set budget and I am actually glad to see that Montgomery was truthful when he said the opening day payroll would be around $90 million. In fact, it is actually over $90 million if you still think Lieber's salary will be on the books and the Thome money.

I am amazed though at the posters though who think it is actually smart to trade away decent players and get nothing of value in return. Change for change sake is probably one of the stupidest mantras of fans in Philly and the callers into WIP. You get will get a "new" team but most likely not a better one in most cases.


Enough with Padilla. He struggled the 2 previous years and is a head case. I have no problem with trading him.

And MG, don't count me as someone who thinks "it is actualy smart to trade away decent players and get nothing of value in return". I think Lidle and Cormier are ok players at best. I wouldn't consider them "decent". The reality in this sport is you have to salary dump from time to time.

I just want to state that I avoided this conversation. We need relievers who induce ground balls, don't walk anybody ever, and are capable of putting up strikeouts. Germano might have been that guy, which is all the more infuriating. Or he got hit hard.

Doesn't anyone get the impression that relievers are a lot like "the hot goalie" in hockey? You know the one who when it turns March, can stop every puck.

Lake Tiztayen... is that near Lake Wallenpaupack?!?

its not lake, its a phrase, lekh tiztayen.

MG: Really that's all I'm saying. To throw away quality talent for nothing because this one's a "head case" or "I'm sick of so-and-so" just shows how shallow and dumb fans can be sometime.

Easy Clout.

Being a "head case"(define it the way you want) in the clubhouse isn't good for a team and often gets a player traded.

Trading someone B/c someone is "sick of someone" is terrible and a different story.

To answer your query above Beard- Billy does in fact like you, he told me himself and is too embarassed to ask you should make the first move.

anyway- germano was nothing special, but I wish we could have kept him in the minors as insurance, but options ran out and so did his time with the Phils. My point about the Padilla and Cormier trades is that we have nothing to show for it. I would at least like some guy plugging away in the minors with the hope that he may some day contribute for the Phils in return for those 2, but nope...naddadamnthing!

Bedrosian's Beard - You just made my point. Both Lidle and Cormier were free agents and there was no reason to just "dump their salary." I could care less if it puts a little more money in the owners pockets.

Frankly, the Phils were lucky that this club had their stretch run and almost made the playoffs. It saved their attendance for last season and helped to push season ticket sales for this year. If not, the Phils would have had to do alot more PR this season to increase fans optisism and interest in tickets.

Enough already! Gillick has been mostly notorious in the trade market as far as getting anything back. He'll trade Rowand, he'll lose F. Garcia to FA next year and he should have kept Germano and let another pitcher go. We may still have all the players from the Abreu deal, but let's not forget that Abreu's offensive numbers still have not been replaced and won't be. If PG would have spent $$ in FA market he'd have gotten his reliever and we wouldn't be talking about this. Borowski, Hermanson...when you need help, you've got to take a shot at guys like that. We are not getting Linebrink or Alex Rios or anyone else of note. Forget it. The budget is set and they're not spending any more without moveing Lieber and nobody wants him. And sas far as I'm concerned Rowand can't be move wothout another deal for a RF'der with some opo and that is wishful thinking.


I don't get your point at all. Lidle and Cormier would have just left via FA. PG figured he'd might as well get SOMETHING for them instead of letting them walk. Cormier wasn't going to bring back anything special, nor was Lidle. At least we got some bodies for Abreu. People were "excited" (not all THAT much) for Matt Smith. Let's all take a deep breath.

Except for Abreu, we didn't GIVE anything that was that great, to warrent getting something BACK. Padilla had a solid year last year, but was bad the prior two years. Nobody was going to overpay for him, and his time was up here. In spirit I agree with your point, but we're constantly overrated out guys.

In the tradition of uncited info, I heard that Lidle alone could have gotten higher quality prospects than Lidle and Abreu brought. A salary dump is a salary is a salary dump.

Gillick decided to tank the season at the deadline by trading Abreu and co. He is publically on record as stating it. Also stated that fans should write off 2007 as well.

Fine. I disagreed with it then and disagree with it now. If you are going to concentrate on rebuilding, then you need to get useful prospects in return.

Gillick got ONE GUY, Matt Smith, who may help this marginally help this team. The rest of the guys will be lucky to ever see major league time. Additionally, the Phils don't have any legit prospects from any of the trades Gillick has made.

People trashed Ed Wade for constantly chasing a chance today and mortaging the future. Tell me how Gillick has been any different so far. I see no difference so far.

Jason, let me be the first to take a deep breath, stop grining my teeth and compliment you - great thread. You can tell by the volume of responses that you touched a lot of nerves. Mine too.

""I think Lidle and Cormier are ok players at best. I wouldn't consider them "decent".""

Bedrosian, please define for the rest of us who you think is "decent". Does it have to be someone who once made an allstar team? Oops, I forgot, Padilla did. And according to you - Cormier "sucks". I would ask you to explain how, by your definition, a reliever who has had a 15 yr. career of a below average ERA and WHIP "sucks".

The point that my friends (with whom I sometimes disagree) clout and Carson are making, which seems to be completely lost on you, is that NO TEAM can be competitive long term if it trades away it's talent and get's nothing in return - not even organizational filler.

By your definition of how to run a team we'd be left with a bunch of AA level 'no-talent ass-clowns' playing at CBP.

Gillick, so far, has more quickly gotten LESS in return for his major trades than Ed Wade got for Rolen and Schilling. That's not to say the players PG traded were as good as those two, but to have NOTHING but Matt Smith at the MLB level less that a year after the trades is pathetic.

For Schilling, at least Wade got Daal and Figgy(19 wins and inning pitched) and Travis Lee (a few hits) and Padilla (49 wins, etc.). Gillick got NOTHING.

For Rolen - Polanco, Timlin and Bud Smith - Wade at least got some innings pitched and a few hits. Gillick got NOTHING.

So far, I would say Wade dd a better job in the major trades he undertook.


"This is why the Phils haven't been to the playoffs in 12 years."


"Either Gillick has some "magical grand plan" that will make us all look like a bunch of idiots with the second guessing, or he's about 1 or 2 more bad moves from the Ed Wade treatment until he rides off into the sunset."

And that's why the Phillies haven't made the playoffs in 13 years.

This guy was just another lefthander with nothing to show for himself. Matt Smith is the lefty guy and a good one at that. No need to get worked up about this.

With hindsight it's easy to criticize some of these trades because we 'got nothing in return', because we gave away a player. But the reality is that if you take a gamble, and trade a known quanity for an unknown one, you might in fact end up with nothing. That's the risk.
On the other hand, you might end up with a useful player, maybe even a future star.

Rheal Cormier was nothing special. Not terrible, but nothing special and was going to be a FA. Justin Germano is nothing special either. PG took a flyer on him and after looking him over decided he was not worth keeping on the major league roster. That's it.

I don't understand how there can be such angst about players who bounce around in the minors for years, and might see a year or two of ML time, MAYBE, as a fringe player, during their careers. How much time do you want to spend debating Garcia vs Nunez, Warden vs Germano??

As for Abreu, the trade has been discussed here a million times. And I noted another reference to the fact that Abreu's numbers in RF still haven't been replaced. Well, the 2007 edition of Bobby Abreu isn't going to replace his old numbers in RF either. All we would have today is a big contract, no power and rapidly dimishing defense.

As for Padilla, taking the character issues aside, you have to look at him in a larger overall context. If the Phillies had kept him, would they have won it in 2006? No guarantee (you cannot just transfer his Rangers' W-L over). He was successful in Philly before and we didn't win.
Would we have re-signed him? Doubtful, but if we had, perhaps we would not have re-signed Myers or traded for Garcia.
If we had not traded him, would Cole Hamels have pitched in the majors last year? I don't know.
Trading Padilla was not a bad move at all, but I do agree that we got snookered on that deal in what we got back. It happens.

I don't agree with many of PG's 'acquisitions' (Alfonseca for one), but I won't fault him for trying to find some useful pieces among the Rule 5s, waiver wires and utility players. If they don't pan out, just move along.

Will the Phillies' Opening Day roster in 2007 be better than 2006 or 2005? If you think so, then PG is doing ok.

George S: I don't know what sport you follow, but in major league baseball a team is measured by wins and losses not whether some goofball in the bleachers thinks the "Opening Day roster" will be better this year than last.

Clout, can you not be a sanctimonious prick for one posting or two? With your knowledge, I'm surprised the Phillies haven't hired you. Or since they haven't, I guess that's why you're so angry all the time.

Look, underlying point: YOu have to trade something to get something. Some of you sound like the 610 callers who say "Trade Dalembert and the Sixers 3 first rd picks for Dwayne Wade. It's 4 for 1!!".

AWH, Padilla had 2 bad years in a row, what could we have gotten for him? Please enlighten me. Cormier? Come on. He's not Cy Young. He's "decent" at best. And he was a FA. What more than Germano could we have gotten? A GM doesn't just accept the first offer he gets. They got a guy who many of you thought/think is a a major league player. Turns out, Mgmt decided that was wrong.

The Phillies have been "competitive" the last few years. Not good enough, definitely. This year's team SEEMS to be the best. Why-their starting pitching depth. TRADING for Garcia.

Hey Bedrosian - Have you ever ended up on the end of a trade where you received some "magic beans?"

Bedrosian, Cormier is on record as asking for an extension - he wanted to stay. He was pitching well when they moved him - 1.59 ERA, 1.17 WHIP. Yes, he was technically a FA, but he's gone because the Phillies moved him, not because he wanted to go. So drop the FA argument, it's old and spurious.

BTW, to wrap up the Wade trades, (Schilling) Daal was traded for Eric Junge who also gave them some innings and Jesus Cordero who is still organizational philler.

As I posted, so far, Wade actually has a better track record in major trades - he got more in return.

Unless he catches lightning in a bottle (oops, I sound like 1993) I predict before the end of the season you'll see signs at the Park saying: FIRE ________.

No, we traded Ozzie Virgil and some magic beans to get Bedrosian and Milt Thompson. Which turned out, ok, I guess...

"GS, I don't know what sport you follow, but in major league baseball a team is measured by wins and losses not whether some goofball in the bleachers thinks the "Opening Day roster" will be better this year than last."

Clout, besides the appreciation for your comment once again increasing the overall baseball knowledge of this blog, thank you for enlightening me there. I didn't know that. Problem is, you can't measure a team by their wins and losses on April 1st.

I hope no one attempts to predict the 2007 baseball pennant races based on what players are actually on which teams' rosters, but will wisely wait until all the wins and losses are in.

So how exactly are you determining if the Phillies have improved during the offseason if you are not going to look at the personnel on the roster? Total salary? Average height? Number of players named Pedro who sport tattoos? Oh, I forgot. Wait until the season is over.

By the way, how are the 2006 Phillies' looking?

Vote for Pedro!

I would say Gillick is doing OK. But you don't go to the playoffs with OK. In fact to use the roster as a tool to defend Gillick is pretty weak right now.

More than once on here, Gillick's moves have been diagnosed and come up a bit short. The main bright spots on this roster are here because of Wade. The rotation does look good but we all have reason to be less than optimistic given our track record of paper teams.

I would like to see our young stars supplemented with the right pieces. It's not as if PG was walking into a total mess of a situation. I hope the rotation improvements are enough and/or the other holes get filled in season.

Holy hell, it's an all out war on here. So tempers are flaring and cruel words being cast...good ol' fashioned BeerLeague at its finest.

Alright, back to the Phils. Our offense is good, one of the best in the league. Our rotation is good one of the best in the league. Our bench is a bench...nothing spectacular. Our bullpen is atrocious, and will be our stumbling block unless it is addressed. I doubt either Lieber or Eaton will be effective relief pitchers, therefore we need to deal the excess which means take best available offer for Lieber since Eaton isn't going anywhere. I'd actually rather have Lieber in the rotation, but he's the one that is able to be dealt. What can we get for him, I don't know...2 weeks to hopefully find out.


It doesn't really matter that our offense is one of the best of the league. What matters is that our offense is relatively on par with the Mets and Braves. Well, relatively, it's probably (ever so) slightly better than the Braves, and worse than the Mets.

Our rotation is not all that much better than the Mets and Marlins rotations either. Despite all the talk about how the Mets don't have a good rotation, they're actually set up to have a pretty good year; especially when Pedro gets back mid-season and is fresh for the playoffs. Look, the Mets have Glavine, El Duque, Perez, Maine, Park, Sele, Sosa, Vargas and Pelfrey to start off the year. That's nine starting pitchers, five of which have experience starting in the postseason, and 8 of them who have started somewhere for an entire season, and 1 of them (Pelfrey) who has the potential to have a Hamels-esque impact. Once Pedro gets back, the Mets are going to be 10 deep (if they don't trade anybody) and have options up the wazoo. that puts our 6-8 deep rotation to shame. In terms of quality, Myers, Hamels are quality, but it's becoming readily apparent that Garcia, Eaton, Moyer, and Lieber are average starters that aren't going to be that much better over the course of a season than the collective rotation strength of El Duque, Perez, Maine, Park, Sele, Sosa, Vargas and Pelfrey.

moving on - our bench is ok. but we don't have anyone on the bench that could be starting on another relatively average team, like Dellucci or Milledge for the Mets.

Our bullpen is not as bad as everybody is making it out to be. Lieber/Eaton, Madson, Geary, Smith, Gordon, and Alfonseca can hold their own, relatively. what the phillies lack is depth. the season is long, and in order to survive and thrive in the playoffs, you need depth. we're counting on bisenius, castro, and brito as our depth, while other teams like the mets and are relying on much much better pitchers and prospects; i.e. the mets: they have Padilla, Adkins, Schoeneweis backing up Wagner, Sanchez, Burgos, Feliciano, Heilman, and Mota. for the record, that's three guys with major league experience backing up a really solid bullpen.

And then there's the coaching. Randolph isn't that much better than Manuel, but I'd rate Peterson much higher Dubee.

Bottom line? Mets have the Phillies beat in all areas. and the phillies have the braves beat in most areas. But that's just on paper. watch the nationals come out of nowhere and take the division. i wonder what those odds are.

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EST. 2005

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