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Tuesday, February 06, 2007

Comments

I'm of the opinion that fans need to take it easy on Burrell early in the season. I think he's a bit of a head case. If he sucks to start, maybe if we act like we think he's sexy, he'll bounce back?

Give him like a month. Maybe?

The booing needs to lessen. I know it won't disappear altogether, but c'mon, Burrell isn't horrible. He was horrible for one season ('03 with that .209 avg.), but has been decent all other seasons, and yes, even last season.

I've mentioned this a few times in the past, but remember during Pat's 37 homer season he was a balls to the walls emotional type player. I remember him hitting a game tying home run and him smiling and pointing into the dugout. What happened to that guy?

I just wish that Cholly could think outside the box a little on the lineup. I know that lineup construction gets a little TOO much emphasis on boards like this, and ultimately doesn't make THAT much of a difference over the course of a season...but still, why not:

Victorino
Utley
Burrell
Howard
Rollins
Helms
Rowand
Ruiz

Wanna make people pitch to Howard? Get guys on base in front of him. Worried about clogging the bases in front of Rollins? Who cares! Hell, between Howard HRs and Ks to end innings, he'll bat with nobody on most of the time. This way you split up the lefties and provide more balance. All you have to do is sell Rollins on the move, but he's all about the glory...in this case, he's the protector of the MVP - you telling me he wouldn't eat that up?

i'm confident that pat will have a fine year. as long as he's healthy, he's a fine player.

hecka: Given that the Phils have no legit leadoff hitter, that's not bad. I like the idea of breaking up the lefties.

Victorino actually had a .346 OBP last year, and hopefully D. Lopes will get him slapping and bunting even more this year to take advantage of his speed. And if it means that Burrell sees more fastballs hitting in front of Howard...that can only be a good thing (unless they're over the inside corner!)

Having Rollins hit behind Howard would neuter our best base runner. We'd lose a lot of steals, and he wouldn't be stretching those singles into doubles as much. Remember, Rollins has a handful of inside-the-park homers for his career. You don't put that kind of speed behind a first baseman.

hecka: Interesting idea. Especially since Utley hit better out of the 2 hole last year.

Only thing I don't like is Rollins hitting 5th and here are a couple of reason why

1. Rollins is notoriously streaky and tends to slump for prolonged periods.
2. Rollins never hits in April and not much in May. Phils need to get out to a decent start this year.
3. Highly doubt that Rollins hits 20+ HRs again this season. More like 15. Plus, he supposedly is trying to lose a little extra weight to start the season for some extra speed.

Rollins is only guaranteed to lead off an inning 162 times batting leadoff. I'm sure someone has done the research, but do you really think that he'll bat with nobody on that much less behind Howard? Whoever bat behind Howard had the bases cleared in front of them 58 times last year at least. But Rollins makes more contact than Burrell, and his slugging was very comparable last year (.478 for Rollins vs. .502 for Burrell). So you lose 10 steals - big stinkin' deal. I actually prefer the possiblity of speed in front of the bottom half of the lineup, guys who aren't as likely to get extra base hits...

Ah yes, tinkering with the most productive lineup in the NL.....

and I agree on the booing. There should be a moratorium on booing for at least the first couple months. Once you know the guy's back the same as before, let loose, but to boo a guy on the opening day of what for all we know could be a career year or something is just stupid.

In checking out PBs numbers from '05 to '06, most of his stats (K/AB, BB, OBP, SLG)were very eerily similar except for one: BABIP.

Was he a victim of 'bad luck'? Were his health problems limiting his ability to drive the ball so that more of them were caught? Any guesses?

I'm not too excited about a Burrell thread. He only excites me when he plays, i.e., negatively when he strikes out at crucial times, and positively when he hits a long ball downtown.

In the offseason, with no real news on Pat the Bat, this thread will only deteriorate into the Pat haters vs. a few Pat defenders flinging old stuff back and forth. I'd like some real news about his health. Where is he anyway? Where does he go in the offseason?

I agree on the moratorium on booing Burrell for the first month or two but unfortunately I think he hears them on the first homestand if he struggles.

Only way Burrell doesn't get booed is if he comes out and hits .300 in April.

I'll preface this by saying I'm whipped.

That said, my best gal and I went to a Phils game three years ago. She was deadset in demonstrating that if you cheer someone, even while they're slumping, they'll be OK.

Pat came to bat. Meg cheered. I hesitated, then cheered. People around us kind of cheered.

Then he homered.

So, yeah, easy with the booing on the guy. Maybe the Midnight Mayor got some sleep in the off-season and is ready to step up.

Maybe.

Only a real sicko would actively want him to fail.

I'll agree with Lake Fred, when PtB comes up I feel like I'm listening to WIP.

It seems to me that PtB inspires boos for two things: taking strike three looking and poor defense. I enjoy sitting in left at CBP, I'm not sure why, every other stadium I buy behind behind the plate. But I can't begin to count the times that I felt like Rowand was able to cover for PtB who was, by virtue of a bum foot, playing out of position. That was my primary concern in the earlier discussion of dealing Rowand, that PtB looses an assist in the outfield.

Regardless of his defense, I think that if PtB is swinging at pitches that are decent, the booing won't be as loud.

I agree on the moratorium on booing Burrell for the first month or two but unfortunately I think he hears them on the first homestand if he struggles.

You're all dreaming. He'll get booed as he makes his first plate appearance, unless by then he saves a baby from a burning building or something. It happened to Lieberthal last year on Opening Day, and even he never got the beating Burrell has in the talk radio shows. This high-profile stuff (Conlin, Gillick, Utley) isn't going to change the average phan's mind a bit.

MG: I agree. I think Phils fans will concede a fresh start to Burrell, but he'll be on a short leash.

I don't put much stock into Utley's analysis, the two are apparently close friends. But let's hope he's right.

Hecka - hell yes, if Rollins was batting behind Howard, he'd bat more often with players on than when he was batting lead off. He followed the pitchers last year, and none of the Phillies pitchers can hit. And the 7- and 8-hitters weren't exactly lighting up the stat sheet either. Even if Rollins was hitting second or third in the inning, he was usually hitting with the bases empty.

And neutering an excellent base runner doesn't just mean less steals. It extrapolates out to fewer extra base hits and literally hundreds fewer throws to first base and/or pitch-outs to hold him on. It also means opposing pitchers don't have that nagging feeling of being distracted by one of the best base stealers in the NL taking a 10-foot lead. So they concentrate on the batter, meaning faster innings for the opposing pitcher, etc. Those all are things you can quantify with statistics.

It also means less excitement on the base paths. That's an intangible, but it seems nothing gets fans/players more revved up than players sprinting and diving and throwing their bodies around with reckless abandon.

I think if Burrell's foot is healed enough to let him play effectively than we should see more like 2005 numbers. I believe then his Average with RISB was .313

The outfield fans (my season tix are in 103) are brutual to Burrell and WIP is just as awful.

going back to my original statement, I would guarantee Pat doesnt get booed if he shwos the same fire he had when he first came up. I feel like he became "rolen-ized"

Another term to be enshrined in the Beerleaguer Commentary Hall of Fame: Rolenized! Way to go, Dude!

Rolenized sounds cool but Rolen is a big baby and PtB is just hung-over.

I am pleasantly pleased to see this hasn't become a Pat Burrell bashing thread. I understand there are reasons to dislike him, but I hope as a Phan you see the positive attributes this man brings to the team as well. Pat Burrell is a Phillie and will be in the everyday lineup, therefore we need him and might as well, gulp, cheer him, or at least not boo him. I know we're a city known for booing, but c'mon already.

zach - I was there, and it (booing Lieberthal) was one of the most embarrassing moments as a phillie fan. Like I said if it was June, Lieberthal was struggling and keeping Ruiz in the minors, booing is justifiable. Not in game 1, not ever.

I think the booing may be stalled if the Philly papers propose it and push it a little (fat chance, I know).

After that, Carson, I can't resist...

Not that I mean to 'bash' ol' Pat. But there's two and only two above-average dimensions to his game: hitting homeruns and walking. In every other possible aspect of the game, he is lacking. I will never understand why people are so eager to overlook this fact. If he isn't hitting 35-plus homeruns a year, he is not a particularly valuable player on a baseball team.

ajc: How often was J Roll on base in the first 2 months of last season? How many bases did he steal?

RSB: That's where we differ. You've said outs are better than walks. I say walks are better than outs.

I'd rather see him walk 100 times a year and hit 35 HRs than walk 50 and make outs the other 50 and hit 40 HRs.

"Rolen is a big baby"

That is what being rolen-ized means, well that and being an no soul aloof son of a bitch

The question is how much good those walks do when the player in question is a boulder anchored to first base, and the hitters coming up after him are nearly as slow.

And I don't think the answer is to bat him higher in the order, so that he's getting more at-bats than better hitters.

I like the idea of Burrell batting 3rd, at least for the first month, to see how it plays out. If its really terrible, then we can send him down to his 7th spot dungeon. Maybe it will light a fire under his ass, get him to concentrate a little better up at the plate and be positive.

I like it even more, because i can see rollins as a viable 5th hitter. I mean at the worst, say howards leading off and gets on base, the worst case scenario is a bunt by rollins to move him along and helms stepping up with a shot to the corner utley is born to be a number two hitter IMO. Granted he was very successful hitting 3rd but i mean if vic can hit even 265, 270, i think utleys rbi's go up big time.

Vic leading off is fine, because i honestly don't think he will be any better or worse than rollins give ten points in BA: just a little less pop. I think the contact hits will more or less be the same.

In any case, regardless of how they rearrange the BO, Ruiz needs to hit, and hit well.

I like the idea of Burrell batting 3rd, at least for the first month, to see how it plays out. If its really terrible, then we can send him down to his 7th spot dungeon. Maybe it will light a fire under his ass, get him to concentrate a little better up at the plate and be positive.

I like it even more, because i can see rollins as a viable 5th hitter. I mean at the worst, say howards leading off and gets on base, the worst case scenario is a bunt by rollins to move him along and helms stepping up with a shot to the corner utley is born to be a number two hitter IMO. Granted he was very successful hitting 3rd but i mean if vic can hit even 265, 270, i think utleys rbi's go up big time.

Vic leading off is fine, because i honestly don't think he will be any better or worse than rollins give ten points in BA: just a little less pop. I think the contact hits will more or less be the same.

In any case, regardless of how they rearrange the BO, Ruiz needs to hit, and hit well.

IMO the fact that he takes so many third strike pitches looking gives the impression that he is not trying. Personally, it frustrates me to see him take the same pitch over and over again and not swing. Everybody in the ballpark knows that they are going to throw low and away.

RSB writes of Burrell, "The question is how much good those walks do when the player in question is a boulder anchored to first base, and the hitters coming up after him are nearly as slow."

As I posted some time ago, the "boulder" scored 50 runs last year not counting his home runs. So I guess he's a rolling stone... (sorry, couldn't resist).

I like Vic leading off. He needs to learn the role of a lead off hitter. His speed will keep pitchers off guard with Chase hitting in the two hole.

What about Rollins hitting third? He can be a good contact hitter (when he is not trying to swing for the fences) and his speed can be an asset in that spot. Burrell then bats either fifth or sixth.

Burrell's been a pretty hot starter the last few years--1.013 OPS last April (probably saving the team from being buried even worse than they were), .955 in 2005, .846 for his career. If you want to give him a month off from booing in hopes of providing positive reinforcement, I recommend June (.759 career OPS, his worst in any month by far).

I honestly don't get all the Burrell scorn. Even if it's true that all he offers is homers and walks, those are just about the most important things for a power guy. Yeah, he hit badly with RISP last year; the year before, he was more than fine. If he's healthy, I think he'll probably more or less match his 2005 numbers: .280/.390/.500, with 30-plus homers, 100-plus RBI and around 100 walks. In a lineup where he's the third or fourth best hitter (depending on what you think of Rollins' contributions), that's fine.

is he really married? i heard he was engaged, but not married. ... either way, give him four to six weeks. we have to have hope right now.

By most accounts in this thread it is now Ok to openly support pat Burrell. This must be some newly enacted statute (Probably Federal) that makes it alright to see the positive side of Pat Burrell. Well I've been on the bashing as of late, but I think it is time to realize that he plays for the Phils, and as long as he does that I have to cheer for him. I think he has potential to get back to 2005 numbers, and if so, we have the best lineup in the NL and you could make an argument for the entire MLB (I'm not going to make this argument until somebody comes in and totally bashes this assertion). Go Pat and Go Phils. Hallelujah, Hallelujah, baseball season is almost here and the howling at the moon can start all over again.

Jennifer sounds disappointed...do u mean give the marriage 4-6 weeks? lol

Best lineup in the majors? I don't think so.

Phils will miss Abreu this year (I know, I know, they did fine--great, even--without him last year, but come on), but the offense should still put some runs on the board.

I'd probably put the Phils in the Top 5 lineups in the majors, figuring they're definite behind the Yankees, and depending on how they do with Bobby, somewhere in the mix with the White Sox and Indians.

In the NL, it's probably the Phils or the Mets, though.

Burrell should try opening his stance a little bit, like Howard, Rollins, and Utley all do. Helps to shorten the swing and see the ball better.

Honestly, the best advice I could give Pat Burrell is just to swing at everything with 2 strikes. It doesn't matter what his actual numbers are as long as they're not abysmal. From a PR perspective, his biggest problem is the "Burrell Shuffle". As mentioned, when even the most casual fan notices something's amiss, you have a real problem. If he would simply stop getting called out looking, and stop doing it with his butt, I think it would go a long way in turning down the volume of the Burrell bashing.

There's also no question that he has a vision problem, although that might well have nothing to do with his actual eyesight. He seems to think that every pitch is off the plate inside, regardless of where it ends up. I also wonder if he has a bad rap with the umps. On occasions when the pitch is close to the inside corner, he simply may not get the calls. Of course, he has to realize and adjust for that.

Well I'm a lurker but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents on Burrell - I had no idea how bad the guy gets booed until I went to my first game. I'm a transplanted Red Sox fan but a Phillies supporter. Every game I'm at, I make sure to cheer him as loud and as hard as I can to drown out the idiots in whatever section I'm in who scream for him to be traded. It just makes me so sad, the guy's on your team, give him some support! I was at the last home game of the year last year and he hit a homerun and I was so proud and let everyone around me know it : )

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