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Monday, February 12, 2007

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something is wrong with the youth of America when I hear about a road trip to Fla on no money and I hear one tiny mention of beer and nothing about chicks.

Sitting in the grass outfield, camping, frisbee golf.... if they would've hitched instead of drove you could've called it the Hippy's Guide to Spring Training

"a Mexican restaurant called Chipotle". now that is funny, calling Chipotle a restaurant. definitely vouches for the street cred as a "broke college student."

Kris Benson shredded his rotator cuff and is done for the year. Do they have anybody decent we could get for Lieber?

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6467752

As a matter of fact, yeah. Gibbons would be a useful fifth outfielder.

Didn't they just sign enough relievers to cover innings 3-12???

Should be some useful leftovers, but I haven't looked...

Just checked - and no... That is why they signed all those RPs.

As usual, J is on the money, only Gibbons fits the bill..

I have heard that Gibbons' defense is extremely suspect - case in point, he played more than half his games at DH last year. but then on the other hand, his defensive numbers look fairly decent.

although I wouldn't mind having Gibbons (esp. compared to Garcia etc.) I have to say that Gibbons for Lieber straight up looks like a bad deal for us. I realize that CW says Lieber has next to no value, but IMO (and I could be wrong) that's mostly due to our own heavily telegraphed desperation to trade.

Lieber for Gibbons would be one-sided; they would need to balance it better somehow. As long as Gibbons is passable defensively - a la Dellucci - I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Burrell/Rowand/Victorino/Werth/Gibbons/Bourn I'd say that's a nice group - not spectacular, but competitive with the rest of the league.

I think Gibbons for Lieber straight-up is not unbalanced Gibbons is a slightly above average right fielder who, on average, would hit .275 with 25 HR and an .800 OPS. I'd give it serious consideration if I were PG and the deal was offered..

rob, Gibbons is barely above average (OPS+ of 106 for his career) and only hits righties. a platoon corner OF with moderate power and poor defense is not worth a starting pitcher - especially not Lieber, who should be good for 30+ starts, about 200 innings and a 4.5 ERA next year (and is in the last year of his contract).

the Phils need to get out of the state of mind that Lieber is a worthless fatso - it's just not true.

FWIW, ZIPs projects Gibbons at .263/.315/.454, 392 AB, 16 HR, 60 RBI. I think he would probably do slightly better as a Phil, especially in re power (with the AL-to-NL switch and the relative friendliness of CBP), but not by much.

Jason, I usually agree with your assesments, but Dellucci as "passable" on defense? Not a chance, unless arm strenght isn't considered a part of defense.

And I agree with ae, Lieber is more valuable to this team than Gibbons would be. People continue to assume that the reamining 5 would be able to make 150-160 starts, and that is just wishful thinking. I would rather go with Dobbs or (gasp!) Garcia as a lefty PH and 5th OF than have to see Brito or Madson return to the rotation.

Right now I would do Lieber for Church, but I don't think the Nats can take on that kind of salary.

rob: Gibbons has only had an OPS of .800 twice in 6 years (alhtough he just missed last year.) Still, he's a MUCH better fielder than Dellucci (though below average) and would be a big offensive upgrade above Victorino. The zips projection looks bad to me, as are most of their projections. He'll do better than that.

Orioles lost a starter, who do they have that we want?

Chipotle is so owned by McDonalds. Or was, I'm not certain it still is.
But about baseball, Gibbons is most certainly better than what we've got and would allow everyone in the outfield to take more days off, and cover more of their weaknesses. Maybe a mid-level prospect thrown in there makes the deal even.

sorry, didn't realized you already jumped on that.

How bout Mora for Lieber and Helms.

sorry, didn't realized you already jumped on that.

How bout Mora for Lieber and Helms.

mm: If the Balt. GM was mentally ill, he might do it.

I have to agree with kdon that Lieber is more valuable to us than to Gibbons would be. Given Hamels' and Eaton's arm history, is it not unreasonable to try to convince Lieber to start the season in the bullpen while we wait for the other shoe to drop? Perhaps give him a handshake deal that if he sucks it up for the good of the team we'll move him to a contender -- unless he decides he wants to stick around.

I don't know that Lieber would go for it but it's at least worth a try.

Sorry, I meant to say that we would move him to a contender at the deadline -- assuming that (a) we're not contending at that point, and (b) that he would like to move on.

The Orioles are already talking to Trachsel... Do the vendors at Camden Yards sell No-Doz?

If the Phils carry 6 SPs going into the season, Eaton will start in the bullpen - he's already volunteered and is realistically a #5 at best. Lieber is closer to a #3 or #4 = you don't put that in the pen with this rotation.

If Eaton could be a useful relief pitcher, then I'm for keeping Lieber as the 5th starter. Lieber is better than Eaton. Lieber had a down season and still did better than Eaton, albeit he was injured. I know Lieber has trade value, just look at the ridiculous contracts handed out to Marquis, Lilly, Meche, and others. Question is, does it make sense to keep a "6th starter"? Screw all this injury talk. We all know a starting pitcher could go down at any time, but to waste a roster spot on an extra starter seems a bit absurd to me, unless the extra starter could be an effective relief pitcher.

Passable, as in, better than J. Weitzel would be in the outfield. I'm aware of Dellucci's rag arm, but I lived with it because he could hit right-handers. That's all I'd want from Gibbons.

Nice post. Back in my youth, I'd travel with a tent and stay at the $5.00 a night campgrounds.

On Lieber-Eaton, I'm with Carson. I'd start Lieber and use Eaton for long relief until a starter breaks down, rather than trade him for a Gibbons.

Clout: Yeah, I know, that would be a ludicrious trade. I was merely dreaming. Dreaming of how wonderful it would be to have the best infield in the NL.

I don't think the Phils could move Helms now. Same for some of the Baltimore relievers. They signed as free agents.

Carson, I agree that the 6 starters thing only works if Eaton can handle the bullpen role and if the trainers agree that it wouldn't exacerbate his injuries.

I would actually be in favor of starting the season with a six man rotation, but I know the Phils are too conservative for that, and all the early off days would mean really long layoffs. My main point is that the Phillies should only deal Lieber if they really like the offer...don't just dump him for the sake of dumping him or to acquire a replacement-level player like Gibbons.

Also, right now, Vic projects to give up a bit in power to Gibbons, but he is faster, a better defender, will get on base more often, and has a higher upside. To block him with Gibbons would be a big mistake.

At this point, considering what deals aren't out there, i think we should use eaton as the LRP until the deadline, and deal lieber than. We will possibly get more value out of Lieber near the deadline and we can see what stuff eaton really has.

Kdon: I'm curious what you think Victorino's upside is. Do you think he will ever have an .800 OPS as an everyday player?

I would be ecstatic if we could get Gibbons. At least he's something. As for you folks, I'm sure you'd turn on him in two weeks, he's Pat Burrell Lite.

actually, if you bother to look at his numbers, he's very little like Burrell. Gibbons strikes out less and hits for average more, but walks much less and has less power. about all they have in common is that they're slow and poor defensively, which they share with virtually every corner OF in baseball.

actually, I should say that Gibbons has less power but does hit a lot more doubles. he's still pretty slow, though.

Clout, I agree an .800 OPS seems to be the ceiling on Victorino, but remember that the two components aren't precisely equal -- the statheads tell me OBP is the more valuable of the two. So could you live with Victorino if his OBP was .375 and his SLG was .400? It would be a stretch for him to get his OBP that high -- he'd have to learn to take pitches, for one thing, and actually steal some bases once he got on for another -- but IMHO it's worth giving him a year to see what he can do. Of course, I'd scrap that plan if a true corner outfielder came down the pike, but then we're talking John Gibbons as an upgrade, aren't we?

And, while we're speaking of Dellucci's rag arm (I remember his butchering a few line drives hit right at him as well), let's remember that Rowand's so-so defense is further undermined by an arm that's every bit as sub-par as Dellucci's. So while a Victorino-Rowand duo would cover quite a bit of ground out there, I'd prefer to see Victorino making the majority of the catches, at least when there are men on base.

Clout, I agree an .800 OPS seems to be the ceiling on Victorino, but remember that the two components aren't precisely equal -- the statheads tell me OBP is the more valuable of the two. So could you live with Victorino if his OBP was .375 and his SLG was .400? It would be a stretch for him to get his OBP that high -- he'd have to learn to take pitches, for one thing, and actually steal some bases once he got on for another -- but IMHO it's worth giving him a year to see what he can do. Of course, I'd scrap that plan if a true corner outfielder came down the pike, but then we're talking John Gibbons as an upgrade, aren't we?

And, while we're speaking of Dellucci's rag arm (I remember his butchering a few line drives hit right at him as well), let's remember that Rowand's so-so defense is further undermined by an arm that's every bit as sub-par as Dellucci's. So while a Victorino-Rowand duo would cover quite a bit of ground out there, I'd prefer to see Victorino making the majority of the catches, at least when there are men on base.

Gibbons/Werth platoon would provide about 25 HR/85 RBIs, more than adequate for the sixth or seventh slot in the batting order, defense would improve with Vic as an everyday CFer and Rowand might add another piece to the bullpen in trade.

OTOH, Gibbons is already getting trashed regularly on this site for his defense but Gillick was high on Werths defense post-signing.

1. The Phils are going to move a starting pitcher before opening day. They won't put a guy making more than $7 million (Lieber or Eaton) in the pen. Not happening.

2. Still think that the bullpen is a bigger hole than the 4th outfielder.

3. Gibbons would bring some value to this team but his injury problems are a bigger cause of concern than his defensive liabilities.

Gibbons really hasn't been healthy since 2003 and has missed alot time in 2 out of the past 3 seasons. Reason he played DH so much was due to injuries more than defensive problems.

It's all moot. The o's signed Trachsel according to ESPN.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2763185

I got bored and checked out Gibbons' stats. He's nothing special. I would not trade Lieber for him.

Something magical just happened, this site now has spell checker!

Gibbons looks like he hit the juice once or twice. 2-3 good years surrounded by 2 lousy ones. Good power in 02,03,05, lousy in 04 and 06. Plus he's injury prone which is usually a tell tale sign of guys on the sauce. And he had that swollen, puffy, extremely large head look a couple years ago.

And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't he one of the names that was blacked out on Grimsley's affidavit?

Tony, if Gibbons name was redacted from the document, how do you know it was there? Gibbons is nothing the Phils need, or dont already have. Lieber should be moved for bullpen help. I think a vetran reliever and a young reliever would be the best, but I doubt that will happen. We need to start trading for some of the Cla Meredith types, or the likes of St. Louis' bullpen in the playoffs last year. I really believe that the future of the bullpen is going to be younger pithcers that get called up with success in the minors. Whether the Phillies buy into this idea is another question, but the Cardinals did great with that idea last season, and the Padres seem to have solidified their bullpen in the same manner.

Side Note: Does anybody remember who the Mets got in that trade last year for Benson? Or was it just that they wanted to get rid of Anna Benson?

Tony, if Gibbons name was redacted from the document, how do you know it was there? Gibbons is nothing the Phils need, or dont already have. Lieber should be moved for bullpen help. I think a vetran reliever and a young reliever would be the best, but I doubt that will happen. We need to start trading for some of the Cla Meredith types, or the likes of St. Louis' bullpen in the playoffs last year. I really believe that the future of the bullpen is going to be younger pithcers that get called up with success in the minors. Whether the Phillies buy into this idea is another question, but the Cardinals did great with that idea last season, and the Padres seem to have solidified their bullpen in the same manner.

Side Note: Does anybody remember who the Mets got in that trade last year for Benson? Or was it just that they wanted to get rid of Anna Benson?

Parker, Google "Jay-Gibbons-steroids". A bunch of articles come up about it. I could be wrong but where there's smoke there's fire.

Mets got Jorge Julio (who they then traded to Arizona for Orlando Hernandez) and - unfortunately for us - John Maine.

Parker - Why would any team want to get rid of Anna? If her husband cheats on her it is fun for everyone!

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