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Thursday, December 07, 2006

Comments

Love this deal.
You don't trade Myers. He's destine to be an ace. deal lieber and Burrell and you get something awesome, too. st

Myers isn't destined to be an ace, more like a very solid #2... but wouldn't you rather keep our best pitcher rather than trade him for another hitter? The offense was never the problem, and who would our number one even be without Brett? You don't really know what you'll get from Hamels next season.

All of a sudden, this offseason got a lot more interesting. It will be interesting to see what Gillick does with Lieber and Rowand. Lieber is definitely gone but I have a feeling Rowand will be the starting CF on this team.

Since its Christmas, here is a wish list of remaining acquisitions:

1. Sign Steve Kline as primary lefty out of pen. Tough on lefties but still effective against righties. Plus, he is a ground-ball pitcher and rarely gives up HRs.

2. Sign Aubrey Huff as super platoon guy. Split time in RF with Victorino and 3B with Helms. Plus, he gives the Phils a much more potent bat off the bench than Conine. This means that Nunez reallys starts a game (great thing) and Conine is playing with all kids come spring training.

3. Trade Lieber and what it takes to get a superb set-up man/possible closer if Gordon goes down.

Myers and Burrell would probably get you Manny Ramirez. I'd say do it, but the Phillies would never be able to keep Ramirez once his contract was up. And besides that, the one place Myers would seem least likely to ever end up is in Boston, where they know a little something about his history.

But could the Phils in fact be now discussing trading Myers?

I was all for that idea through the second half of the season. But now I see the Phillies getting older, older, older - and even though I still don't feel he'll ever be much better than he's already shown, I'm not quite so gung-ho on the idea as I once was.

Any way you slice it, last year's problem of the fifth starter is solved. Search this blog about how whoever the fifth starter was - Floyd, Scott Mathieson, that warm body that got shelled - their stats were ridiculously bad. That, to me, was the variable that prevented Gillick from getting his five extra wins to get over the hump.

Myers, Garcia, King Cole, Moyer, and Eaton. Paper lineups are fine and all, but that's a starting rotation that went 56-42 last year with 620 strikeouts and an ERA in the low 4s. (Eaton was injured, and precisely half of the rotation was in the AL.)

Pat Burrell and Jon Lieber will probably get you somebody else's Pat Burrell. A guy who puts up good numbers but is inexplicably hated by the hometown fans and traded because of it. 6 of one, half dozen of another.

So is Garcia #1 in the rotation over Myers? I say yes.

Could this trade maybe make it easier to land a Vernon Wells? Hmmm...

i love the deal!

gio gonzalez is still unproven. he could end up being johan santana or julio santana, at least we got a proven commodity in freddy garcia.

I suspected all along the Phillies would pop Gio Gonzalez back out in a trade. By mid-season, there were signs his stuff may not translate to CBP. Still, he's quite young and has some electric stuff. Who knows? Certainly not me. But I can honestly say I never once pictured him as part of the team's future, and I'm not sad he's been sacrificed in order to give Howard, Utley, Rollins the support to reach the playoffs now.

so for $22million, Thome and Gavin Floyd, the phils have gotten: Rowand, Garcia, Castro. Right? Am I missing someone here?

I like the trade, but I'm not crazy about giving up the future for the present.

Where is the Harden to the Mets rumor coming from? If that happens, say for Milledge and another prospect, then the Mets will have made a great move that I think counterbalances the gains made with the deal for Garcia.

Whoa on the Myers talk. He's ready to have a great season. Lieber to the Brewers and Rowand to the Rangers will get you the bullpen we need.

Harden was reported last night on Comcast.

I think Huff is almost certain to get a full-time job somewhere, so he's less likely to come here if we make him platoon. but I would gladly make him our full-time RF and simply cut out the whole platoon issue.

I'd like to see us sign Huff as an FA, send Rowand to Texas for Otsuka per the rumored trade (which, if true, would be a steal), and send Lieber to Milwaukee for one of the rumored relievers (pref. Capellan, natch) and a prospect instead of Mench, to make up for losing Gonzalez. then if Gillick really wants to trade Madson to the Nats for Church, we can afford to give him up...the big benefit to Church, btw, is that he's a CF - so we would fill our need for an OF defensive replacement and have a good pinch-hitter off the bench, which is much more than you can say for Bourn (right now, at least), Roberson, et al.

do NOT trade Myers. trade that donut-eatin-sonna-bitch Lieber...he'll get us relief help. Gillick is making me a believer, I'm very excited right now.

Good day yesterday - t'wife returned a weeks work in NY with nice pressies (along with her good self) and then this trade goes down whilst I sleep.

I like the trade on the whole. Garcia doesn't get the k/9 he once did:

2003 6.44
2004 7.89
2005 5.76
2006 5.62

But his BB/9 have also gone down:

2003 3.17
2004 2.74
2005 2.37
2006 2.00

And that's hard not to like. He's going to be 30 next year instead of 36 and 200+ IP? That's good news for our number 3.

I like the fact that in trading gio for a MLB pitcher, he's given us better MLB-experienced trading chips - be it rowand or Victorino, Leiber or Myers or anyone but Cole. He was complaining at the Winter Meetings that we have very few trading pieces, but we're better now.

My only concern is how short it leaves our backup in the minors if either Hamels or Eaton (or even Ol'Moyer) goes down with injury. I realise that Happ and Germano are down in AAA and Segovia in AA, but Gio's K/9 was a nice flashy indicator that he could have coped at MLB level if thrown in the deep end. As I understand it Happ is a soft-toss type pitcher who may get hammered up here, and although Germano's ERA from last year is nice, there's nothing overwhelming about the guy.

Jason, can you perhaps give us some insight into the three pitchers nearest the majors and how they're looking as spot-starter possibilities?

I know it sounds crazy, but I think Ozzie Guillen could fix Floyd. He needs a kick in the ass and Ozzie will definately oblige. Overall, looks like a good deal for the Phightin's...but they HAVE to resign Garcia!

Here is how the rotation will work IMO...

Garcia-R
Myers-R
Hamels-L
Eaton-R
Moyer-L
Although it wouldn't surprise me to have Hames as the 5th starter initially since the Phils might be worred about the YAE (year after effect) of pitching 181 innings after never going above 50 or so.

I've always been a believer of Pat Gillick and thus far, in Philly, his moves are in tune with the makeup of the 1980 Philadelphia club. He first added potential in Helms and Eaton, without killing the bank. Remember Helms actually hit 23 home runs one year, a few years back. Eaton could win 13 ish if healthy. Now, you add a workhorse, playoff tested starter in Garcia; a pitcher with enough fire to get us over the top. Veterens like Moyer and Conine for a lil more leadership..Howard, Utley, and Rollins manning the clubhouse. I say keep Rowand in center, where he's good for 20 homers a year and tough defense if healthy, move Burrell for a reliever, and sign a guy like Trot Nixon who is an exellent defender or a guy like Aubrey Huff who we know will hit 25-30 homers a year. If the Lieber deal goes through to the Brewers, then you add Mench and Turnobow..more potential. They're also working on a deal to perhaps sign Octavio Dotel. Then, they would still have money left over to offer Garcia an extension for around 3 years.

1. ss rollins
2. cf rowand
3. 2b utley
4. lf Mench
5. 1b howard
6. rf huff
7. 3b helms
8. c ruiz

bench: victorino, nunez, conine, coste, bourn.

1. garcia, 2. myers, 3. moyer, 4. hamels, 5. eaton

bullpen: gordon, madsen, turnbow, dotel, *a lefty in a trade for burrell, geary, brito

Jason, can you perhaps give us some insight into the three pitchers nearest the majors and how they're looking as spot-starter possibilities?

Probably a similar group to last season: Madson as a candidate on the roster, Brito and Mazone in AAA. Segovia would be their next highest. Mathieson will miss next season, otherwise he'd continue to start in AAA.

Rowand's good for 20 HR a year? that's news to me, and probably news to Rowand himself, given that he's only hit more than 13 HR, let alone more than 20, once in his entire career.

I'm assuming that a lineup containing an unplatooned Kevin Mench hitting fourth, ahead of Ryan "didn't I win something last year?" Howard is some kind of elaborate joke and I'm just missing the punchline.

Maybe factor Castro in there again, Jason? I guess it depends on whether he goes into AAA as a starter.

The more I think on it, the more quietly satisfied I get. I remember fretting about a rotation with Lieber and Eaton on it - Garcia is far more predictable than Lieber, and so this makes the eaton deal work better.

J., my sentiments matched your's almost exactly. The key fact of this deal is we have a proven guy with a ring instead of 2 could-be type guys. I also wonder what we could get for Burrell and Myers. I say gamble with Boston. Put your cards out on the table and gamble.

Carson said it right when he said:

"do NOT trade Myers. trade that donut-eatin-sonna-bitch Lieber"

In my mind Hamels is our "Ace", however, Garcia deserves to be the opening day starter based on his history. Let Myers be no. 2 based on his history, and let Hamels feast on pitching against other teams' no. 3 pitcher. In this scenerio, Hamels ought to rack up a lot of victories. Moyer will win his share and Eaton's wins will be a bonus.

The ChiSox must have really valued Gio before when they had him and wanted him back. They probably feel they made a good trade. I feel that the Phillies picked up a main course dish with table scraps you give to the dog under the table. Hopefully, this trade will offset the bad Abreu deal when we evaluate the GM. Gillick did us proud last night.

Steal of a trade. The White Sox had a huge chip going into the Winter Meetings with all that SPing, and now it seems the Phils have it coming out. Put me in the camp of dealing Myers but only if the price and player are correct. He may not me a #1, but on a team with a gross staff (Tampa Bay?) he would be and a deal with Pat might land us a stud.

If not, Lieber looks more attractive for a second tier type of player.

I can't believe this got pulled off without having to part with Rowand, who I thought was the CWS main target. Are we sure that there isn't something wrong with Garcia? It's weird to be on the fleece-er end of a trade, as opposed to being the fleeced.

Trading Myers would *have* to bring us Manny, or some other grade A studmuffin.

otherwise, ship donut boy, and the midnight mayor.

Haven't posted in a long time, but have been reading.

I'm impressed with Gillick's moves. Despite some bold moves, I think he actually is taking a balanced approach over the long haul. Pleasing the players, fans and the owners. Not easy. Every move is calculated as part of an overall plan. Each move is not adored by each constituency, but each move is part of the overall big picture.

Consider: He keeps a manager that is unpopular with the fans, but popular with the players, yet adds 3 quality coaches in support roles- all former managers. (O.K. we lost Howe, but what can you do about that). Questions for you. Despite Manuel's questionable in-game tactics, is it a coincidence that Howard and Utley are doing so well under Manuel's leadership? Is it my imagination, or did Rollins have his best year ever? Are they so good that they would have flourished no matter who there coach was?

Starting Pitching: Several moves that have improved the starting rotation by light years. (Hamels from minors, trade for Moyer during WC run, Gonzalez trade in off-season, stuck by Myers even though impulsive fans wanted him traded)

Relief Pitching: Remains to be seen. Lost Wagner (maybe not his fault since he probably should have been given a contract during the season under Wade). Got Gordon - as good as reliever available at the time.
Possibilities still there.

3rd base/outfield: Minor upgrade at 3rd with Wes Helms signing. Not the bat fans were looking for to protect Howard, but at least an improvement over Nunez for batting, and he was cheap, so Nunez stays on for defensive help late in games. Outfield is still weak. Again, lets see what happens by opening day.

Catcher: Old Man Coste from the minors - a very good move last season. Hopefully he remains viable this season. Ruiz is decent.

I think probably the one mistake he made was underestimating the Phillies chances during last season. I think based on the moves he made and is making, he has learned from that mistake. He has previously said that he didn't think the Phillies could contend even next season. Do these moves look like there are coming from a team who won't contend?

there, thats better.

Anyone who doesn't like this deal is nuts...go to baseball reference and do a "compare" between Garcia and Zito and you will find that they have almost identical numbers over their careers (Garcia 8, Zito, 7).

Looking forward to PG bolstering the bullpen.

Also to figuring out what the OF will look like...OF currently of Burrell, Rowand, Vic could start opening day...or 2 of 3 will be gone...

The thing I like most about this is that it will help lighten the load on the bullpen. Garcia's career 6.5 IP/GS, along with Myers' career 6.1 IP/GS and Moyer's 6.4 IP/GS in the last 5 years, should allow the bullpen to rest up between Eaton starts.

Too bad we can't trade Eaton and keep Lieber, because then we'd have one of the most efficient rotations in the league.

close the italics? testing testing

Gotta remember to close yer tags Lake Fred :)

I did close them. It must have got lost in the upload.

Toronto lost SP Ted lilly to the Cubs and failed to sign SP Gil Meche who appears to be going to KC. Maybe we can package Lieber and an outfielder for Vernon Wells. That would solve a lot of problems.

Gus, great point on the comparison between Garcia and Zito! If Garcia was on the open market this offseason, no way the Phils would have landed him. FA contracts are a bit too steep (and as we see with some of these guys, Philadelphia doesn't have the same pull that NY, Boston and some of the bigger markets have in terms of attracting these guys).

Lake Fred, your comment,"I feel that the Phillies picked up a main course dish with table scraps you give to the dog under the table," reminded me of another trade evaluation from years past: "Gentlemen, we just got a diamond and a ruby for three bags of garbage." That was Gene Mauch's assessment of the trade where the Phillies gave up Ferguson Jenkins. I hope the results of this trade turn out slightly different.

I don't have any problem with the Phillies trading Brett Myers, but only if..
Gracia is re-signed or has committed to stay, or the Phillies get a starter in return.
Otherwise 2008 looks like Hamels and Eaton and a year older Moyer as the rotation.

That said, if you want to trade Myers instead of Lieber, you package him and Rowand and get Vernon Wells from Toronto.

Personally, I prefer trading Lieber.

In any event, we should be grabbing Trot Nixon off the FA list.

Love waking up to this kind of news in the morning. Gives me a reason to have morning wood.

Oisin - I couldn't agree with your plan any more.

Sign Huff
Rowand to Texas 4 Otsuka.
Lieber to Mil 4 Cap + a prospect
I would stop there though - Church is no prize.

1 - J Roll
2 - Vic
3 - Utley
4 - Howard
5 - Huff
6 - Burrell
7 - Helms
8 - Ruiz

SP - 1 - Myers - 2 - Garcia - 3 - Cole - 4 Eaton 5 - Moyer

RP - Gordon - Otsuka - Cap - Geary - Madsen...

It just leaves us a little short on the bench, but Coste can play multiple positions as can Conine.

Can Bourn be an effective backup CF??????

I would fall in love with that team if it works out....

Ouch! Rich. Ferguson Jenkins was a great pitcher for the Cubs. I think we also traded Ryne Sandberg to the Cubs, too. The Cubs and the Sox both are Chicago teams. Maybe Floyd and Gio were dogging it this year in hopes of moving to a major market team. Maybe Selig told Gillick to trade these two highly valued prospect to the Sox for the washed up, elderly Garcia. I hope I don't have Mauch's jinx power on this trade.

Your right, Lake Fred, although our luck with the White Sox has been a little better than with the Cubs. After all, we did steal Johnny Callison from them.

Another thought...

Maybe we could handle all our needs if we just deal with texas..

Rowand + Lieber to texas for Otsuka, Danks and one of their other RPS?

Then sign huff???

Didn't Texas snooker us in the Padilla deal?

"I don't have any problem with the Phillies trading Brett Myers, but only if..
Gracia is re-signed or has committed to stay, or the Phillies get a starter in return."

If you trade Myers you will not get a SP of = or better value in return so you shouldnt trade him

Meanwhile, that Rafael Soriano for Horacio Ramirez deal went through. File that under WHAAAA???

I don't think there is anyway Toronto accepts Lieber and Rowand for Wells unless we include a lot of money and/or someone like Happ.

I really like the idea of singning Huff or Nixon, starting Rowand in center and using Vic as a super-sub, where he would proabably be the best 4th OF in baseball. Remember, Pat will probably get a lot of off days and Vic can start against lefties and could PH from either side...he could get around 300 ABs if (BIF IF) Manuel used him correctly.

No, no, no on Mench or Turnbow.

Will, so what is wrong with Rowand, Garcia, and Castro for Thome, considering everyone in baseball knew we were trading him?

They did get us in the Padilla deal, just means they owe us one.

As do a few other teams...

Rowand Garcia and Castro for Thome is a huge plus for the Phillies, especially considerring that Thome will break own if he has to play a position everyday.

Padilla and Abreu trades... Well, jury is still out on Abreu, but the Padilla trade was a dump.

Yeah they got us on Padilla, but who knows, maybe we got them back with Castro...

So this is weird: Houston Chronicle reports that the Astros are close to acquiring Jon Garland ...

Just going through the link from yesterday and wanted to correct something RSB said about the earliest mention of Garcia. I think we should give props to djafi over at the good phight who was on Garcia from Oct. 13

http://www.thegoodphight.com/story/2006/10/13/14121/565

RSB (i think) mentioned it a few threads back - all we seem to do is deal with Texas. Even coaches.

BTW -

(ae, how are these stats?)

Heres the Phils Rule 5 Picks:
Alfredo Simon, RHP, 6-4, 230, 25 years old: 2-10, 6.62 ERA, 28 games (17 starts), 88-1/3 innings, 119 hits, 33 walks, 70 K, for Class AAA Fresno and Class AA San Jose (Giants)

Jim Warden, RHP, 6-7, 195, 27 years old: 5-2, 2.90 ERA, 55 games, 59 innings, 35 hits, 29 walks, 47 K, for Class AA Akron (Indians)

Ryan Budde, C, 5-11, 205, 27 years old: .233, 8 HR, 33 RBI, 72 G, 15 2B, 55 K, 22 walks, .738 OPS for Class AAA Salt Lake City (Angels)

Per Doomed Jew Ken Rosenthal:

"One day after sending right-hander Freddy Garcia to the Phillies, the White Sox were discussing sending right-hander Jon Garland to the Astros for center fielder Willy Taveras and right-handed pitching prospects Taylor Buchholz and Jason Hirsh, FOXSports.com has learned."

This deal sounds far from done, but if Hirsch and Tavares are in there then that's quite a steal for the overrated Garland.

Mav, I think you meant to say:


if "Hirsch is in there then that's quite a solid package for the better than average Garland."

Taveras sucks.

nice work Paul. :)

looks like Simon returns to our system after being traded with Rickey Ledee for Felix Rodriguez in 2004.

Warden had good numbers, but he was way too old to still be in AA.

could Budde be our emergency third catcher? he's pretty bad, but the other choice is overpaying for a mediocre major leaguer like Rod Barajas.

I think Tavares sucks, but he is a "Major League Piece" and gives them some flexibility if Brian Anderson continues his spiral.

Ae, these are Rule 5 picks, meaning unless they stay on the 25-man roster, they have to be returned to their team.

There is zero chance any of these guys stick with the Phillies.

I'm sorry, but why would anyone want to trade Myers??? The guy was almost untouchable after he cleared up his problems last year. If this is all about the assault thing, give it up. The guy is 26 and was probably drink at the time. It's not right and he should pay for doing something like that, but his wife dropped the charges and he has been going to counseling. She says he is a good father. What more do you want from the guy. Myers deserves a second chance. He is our best pitcher, even with Garcia and some would like to keep ancient, doughnut boy Lieber and trade Myers. C-mon?! Step back and think about what your saying. Lieber was horrible for more than half the season last year. I just hope we can get rid of him before he truly proves he has nothing left this season.

kdon, you're right, I completely forgot about that.

however, given how much Gillick has talked about acquiring a third catcher, the fact that he drafted two (milb.com says Phillies took C Adam Donachie first, not Simon) makes me wonder if he's not planning on using one of them. how long do teams have to put Rule V picks on their roster? can the Phillies give these guys spring training invites?

never mind on Donachie - I see we traded him to the Orioles for Alfredo Simon after the draft...

Oh yea and Tim Krukjan (I dont know how it is spelled) says that the biggest waste of money this offseason was the Phillies signing of Adam Eaton. In my opinion the biggest waste of money this off season is ESPN paying that weasel to talk about baseball. I think Eaton has a lot of potential and if nothing else is a solid #4 or 5 pitcher. We didnt exactly break the bank for this guy. I probably would have prefered Gil Meche, but maybe Gillick knows something about him that we dont from Seattle. Regardless Eaton is not the biggest waste of money. Any of the Cubs signings or any of the Red Sox signings come to mind fist. (Signing an unproven Japanese pitcher who smoked out of shape guys in an exhibition??) Not great, and "Nancy Drew" (by the way thanks for that one Rob.) That is the worst. And as for the Cubs, Soriano may be a good player but they are obligated for the better part of a decade to a 31 year old player. (Thats if you believe his birth certificate). Also Lilly is overrated and possibly a bit of a head case. Give me a break Tiny Tim, go tiptoe around some tulips and stay away from baseball for a while.

ChiSox opting for Taveras instead of Rowand?
A good indication of the real value of Aaron - not as much as many posters would like to believe!

Perhaps Ken Williams was just blowin' smoke about his desire for Rowand.

I'm with Parker. I love to get really *drink* and then go allegedly beat up my midget wife that I don't have.

Myers and Burrell somewhere for somebody and I'm with Gillick.

I'm with Gillick for every move he makes, though. So there's that.

Parker is right, no way should we trade Myers. If Myers new pitch, used late this year, stays around, Myers could have a killer season. For all we know, Garcia may only be the third best pitcher on this team. Trade the doughnut eater.

Maverick, it took me awhile to catch the sarcasm of your description of Ken Rosenthal. One had to be up on the Church discussion in yesterday's thread to get the "joke", otherwise the description is offensive. We should avoid poking fun at other's religion on this site, whether its Church's religion, Rosenthal's religion, or mine or yours. Is it possible to offend atheists?

I have found that Ken Rosenthal has been writing up a storm in the last few days. Ken has been earning his money at this time of year. I enjoy checking out his reports.

i just want to get back to the reason for this post....we got RID of gavin floyd and landed us FREDDY GARCIA, nice!

"A good indication of the real value of Aaron - not as much as many posters would like to believe!"

Depends on how you define "real" vor. If you mean what other teams think, you may be right, but if you mean something like "objective" value, I think it's pretty clear that Rowand's career OPS of 780 trumps Taveras's 669.

Taveras has a speed edge of course, but not nearly enough to offset 111 points of OPS. Also, Rowand has the ability to go all 2004 on the league (meaning, super good all-star level CF) while Taveras has no such chance. He is the reincarnation of Glanville with slightly better plate discipline and (yes, it's possible) less power.

Good pick up with out giving up much. Floyd is a wash and Gio might turn out to be something but it won't be for a while. If they trade Burrell and dump his cash then Garcia may be able to be kept for more than just this year. Is Tejeda still avaliable for trade? Lieber and Rowand to Orioles for Tejeda out of the realm of possability? Phils move J-Ro to third and Tejeda covers short. OK now i'm just dreaming......

JZ, I did not mean to sound in any way that I condone Myers' actions. Personally I think that it is one of the most cowardly and despicable acts a man can do. However, we have a legal system to bring these people to justice. His wife dropped the charges, and we dont know the real story. I imagine that they were both drunk (not drink) and they both made decisions they regret. I am just saying that we should give the guy a chance to live down his mistakes. He seems to be doing the right things and this may be a turning point in his life. It is incredible to me that Ray Lewis can allegedly kill two people and still be on the cover if SI with the title "gods linebacker." That is despicable. I will never forget what Myers did, but if this makes him a better father and husband then things turned out for the best for everyone. If it happpens again then he is total scum. But I will withhold judgment until then.

VOR - have to disagree. it wasn't that taveres is better than rowand, its just that the overall package that the astros was offering (including taveres) meant they didn't need rowand. To be honest, we come out ahead - our deal for garcia looks better (we didn't give up as much) and we have rowand to trade elsewhere.

Do the rockies still need a CF'er...?

Thoughts:

Myers is opening day starter. Garcia #2, Hamels a kick-ass #3, Moyer #4 and Eaton #5.

Not having to deal Rowand for Garcia is great news. We now have Lieber and Rowand to deal for need. Our need is primarily bullpen and ideally another 25 HR guy.

Gillick has my vote of confidence... this rotation is probably the best in the NL East by a long shot.

Um, right. Obviously didn't mean to offend anyone, but I subscribe to the belief that you can poke fun at ethnic groups that you belong to. Also, was really more being sarcastic toward the people who condone Church's comments (because, really, what damage has the marginalization of a minority's faith ever done in the history of the world?)

Lieber's definitely gone before ST, but Rowand we can hold on to and trade during the season based on Vic's performance.

Wow, something positive happened to the phils and then clout doesn't post all day. Coincidence?

Clout? Clout? you out there?

I agree Mav, I think that was a funny comment, even if you aren't Jewish. It exposes the absurdity of Church's position...I guess LF isn't a big fan of Borat, either.

kdon: If you believe 2004 was not an aberration and can be duplicated again, I would tend to agree, but I tend to think another year like that is unlikely.

Taveras supplies speed & SB, Rowand gives more power. Taveras probably takes better tracks on fly balls and doesn't make foolish throwing errors (or endanger teammates). Other than that they're both high SO/low BB weak-armed CFs. Half-dozen of one, six of the other.

Still, if Williams is so enamored of Rowand's leadership and clubhouse intangibles, it is puzzling why he didn't grab him while he had the chance.

Yes - I'm definitely a Borat fan. Between Cohen and Comedy Central, I think exposing absurdity through deadpan satire may be the hallmark of my generation.

Alternatively, it could be Paris Hilton. Keeping my fingers crossed.

I'm happy for the garcia trade. Hopefully we can milk it for all its worth this year and really take a shot. If we don't make the playoffs 1) Charlie Manuel is gone, 2) We will not resign Garica(we may not anyways considering the new contracts and pay raises coming howard and utley's way) and 3) Utley or Howard may decide to find a new home, much like Scott Rolen did.

So let's make the playoffs and keep this team together. This is looking to be the best phils team in recent memory

"Phillies general manager Pat Gillick had a strong finish at the meetings. First he beefed up the rotation by trading for Freddy Garcia, who'll be extremely motivated next season as he approaches free agency. Then the Phillies added two intriguing bullpen arms in this morning's Rule 5 draft in Alfredo Simon and Jim Ed Warden. Simon has reportedly hit 98 mph in winter ball, and the Indians didn't want to lose Warden, a 6-7 righty with a sidearm motion."

...and when speaking about Rowand's "value", he will probably make approximately eight times the salary of Taveras and is more likely to land on the DL.

Warden is intriguing, but the guys just has no control and I don't think we can waste a bullpen spot on him. He is 27, never pitched above AA, and has a career minor league BB/9 of 5.4! He would have to drastically improve jsut to get to project status. Simon is interesting, but again, he isn't going to stick for the whole season. Gillick is going to have to give up something in order to keep these guys in the minors. I'm more intrigued by Segovia, Brito, and Mazone than either of these guys.

Only weird thing about this is that it's Gillick acquiring another one of his ex-Mariners (along the lines of Moyer, Franklin... all you need is Pineiro and Meche and you'd have the entire 2003 rotation going through Philly).

On the other hand, I was almost on the brink of flying to Philly so I could punch Gavin Floyd last year. It wouldn't surprise me if the White Sox could fix him the same way they fixed Matt Thornton, though.

Freddy Garcia can be frustrating at times, but in general he's a pretty good pitcher. The first time I ever saw him pitch after I moved to Seattle was my birthday in 2003, though -- he gave up 10 runs to the Yankees in the third inning of the game, which sucked, and I never did quite forgive him for it.

Manuel's comment in today's Inquirer - "We've still got to address our bullpen," he said bluntly during a media availability yesterday at the winter meetings in the Walt Disney World Dolphin Resort. "For me, we need two pieces. Two good pieces."

Never thought I would absolutely agree with Manuel 100% on something.

I can't speak on the relative defensive skills of Taveras and Rowand, but the latter was considered an excellent defeinsive CF before he came to the Phillies, which makes me think he just needs to figure out the NL parks (especially the fences!)

And I'm sorry, but Taveras speed just can't make up for his complete inability to ever hit the ball hard...he is like Juan Pierre light! Rowand does make 8X more, but I think it is more instructive to say that he makes about $4M more, which isn't a really big sum these days.

..which makes me think he just needs to figure out the NL parks (especially the fences!)

Perhaps, but enough said about Rowand from me (at least for now!).

Looks like Phils flipped Simon to Balt for fellow Rule 5 Donachie.

vor, as I posted above, I believe it is the other way around. Baltimore initially selected Simon and we drafted Donachie.

I got the "joke", but not immediately. At first glance, I thought Maverick was poking fun at Ken Rosenthal. I once had a summer job where I learned that one of my coworkers seriously believed that all who were born and died before the time Christ were doomed to hell. We used to joke that cavemen went to hell because dinosaurs didn't exist, because the world was only 6,000 years old.

We live in a world where people are dying and killing in the name of religion. You need to know your audience before making a religious joke. In this forum, you don't know the audience. All you know is that we are Phillies fans.

I haven't seen the Borat movie, but from what I've heard, I would probably enjoy it. My wife thinks I'm sick when I tell her that my all-time favorite movie is Animal House.

Like the liberal cliche slightly adjusted: Some of my best friends are Jewish or fundamentalist Christians.

LF, didn't you hear from Professor Carl Everett:

"[Dinosaurs] didn't exist. God created the sun, the stars, the heavens and the earth, and then made Adam and Eve. The Bible never says anything about dinosaurs. You can't say there were dinosaurs when you never saw them. Someone actually saw Adam and Eve. No one ever saw a Tyrannosaurus rex."

From:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Everett,_Carl

Sorry ae, my bad!

Gee, kdon, when I was a kid, my family took me to the Museum of Natural History in New York and I thought I saw dinosaurs. My dad worked for a fuel oil distributer that sold Sinclair gasoline. I even had a green blow-up Sinclair dinosaur as a kid. I must have been dreaming! Who's Carl Everett? Didn't he play for the Red Sox?

the thing with simon is, its nice to have a 100mph throwing gorilla in the pen, to bring in for a change of pace, like after Moyer.

it changes the game. you can actually throw a 98mph ball past pro ball players.

Will: Sorry, been busy. As I posted yesterday, I LIKE the Garcia trade. My objection is to the boneheads who say Kenny Williams got snookered. Garcia IS A ONE-YEAR PLAYER! Helllooo!!! He's FA after this coming season! I hope the Phils can sign him, but given the overpriced state of the market, that's no slam dunk.

If the report on Garland for Hirsh is true then the Chisox are clearly in rebuild mode. Hirsh is a top prospect, but far from being a stud pitcher at this early stage. Taveras allows them to deal Podsednik. My guess is the Sox either didn't think they could re-sign Garcia after '07 or didn't want to.

Gillick is rolling the dice to win now, which I like. It makes the Abreu trade look even stupider, but the guy seems to be learning from his mistakes. I've been crying for 6 starting pitchers for the past 2 months and now we have them. Add a couple bullpen arms and I'll be quite happy.

Tim K is an idiot if he thinks the Eaton signing was the worst of the offseason. Some of these guys that got signed are going to be sitting at home and still under contract in 5 years.

kdon: You nailed it on Taveras, Juan Pierre very light. Unlike Pierre, he hits from the right side, which makes it harder to use his speed. I don't like the guy at all, but he is an upgrade over Podsednik.

mm said: "So let's make the playoffs and keep this team together. This is looking to be the best phils team in recent memory"

Uh-oh. You mean like the 2003 team after adding Millwood and Thome, or the 2004 team after getting Milton and Wagner?

Please. When are we going to learn that what a team looks like on paper doesn't mean *anything*? I mean, granted: things look fairly positive. But they have to play the games. Is Freddie Garcia going to raise the Phillies' record with RISP out of the depths? Is it going to make them play better at home? Is it going to make them not lose series to last-place teams with a playoff spot on the line?

And why do some of you insist on believing GMs or teams get 'snookered' on deals that just happened a day ago? Don't you suppose that regardless of the way it looks to the naked eye, these guys have their own agendas, their own reasons for doing things? It's their business to know. Garcia was a surplus pitcher for Chicago who they obviously didn't intend to re-sign after next season. They got back two younger pitchers with considerable upside. We'll see who's laughing when the Phillies finish dead last in Baseball America's orgainzational rankings.

If the Phillies want Wells, they'd have to trade Myers, no Lieber. Myers' chief market value stems from the fact that he's 25 and that people feel he hasn't yet reached his potential. I look at him and say, he might very well have reached it, and I don't think he should be considered untouchable. That has been my stance on him before *and* after the wife-mauling incident.

The Rule 5 guys don't appear to hold out a lot of promise, but then again, all I'm looking at is the numbers. Since they bothered with Budde, I wonder if they're still in the market for a 40-year-old third-string catcher. Warden at least got people out in the minors last year, but Simon's last two seasons have looked like this: 3-8, 5.03; 2-10, 6.62. The best hope would seem to be that the Phils would be able to keep these guys in the system after having to offer them back.

Man, roles are reversing with back to back comments. clout is reasonably happy and optomistic, while RSB is taking the contrarian position, pouring cold water on our joy for getting a real starting pitcher for a handful of magic beans.

No, no - I'm happy. I am. Garcia is as good a pitcher as the Phils could possibly have hoped for this off-season. But these are the Phillies. Exercise the short-term memory and realize that the additions of Millwood, Milton, and Lieber did not guarantee a playoff spot any more than Garcia will. Lieber, for one, went 17-11, 4.20 in '05. I question just how far apart he is from Garcia. Things change so drastically from one season to the next that it's almost foolish to project what a guy will do based on the appearance of last year's stats.

If Gillick trades Burrell for $.50 on the dollar then RSB will be alot happier.

Fred: To make it perfectly clear, I AGREE with what RSB just posted. But I also like what Gillick's been doing this offseason as opposed to last offseason. Now let's go get some bullpen arms.

Needless to say, I love the Rule 5 reliever pickups. Exactly the sort of "why not" guys you let dazzle you in ST. Simon's been a starter for most of his pro career, so I could see him benefitting big-time from a permanent shift to the 'pen. And the side-armer evidently throws low 90s with decent (not great) walk numbers but, last year at least, outstanding hit rate and good K rate.

I was initially perturbed to see Gio dealt, but I'm now very enthusiastic about the Garcia trade. The guy would be commanding insane money as a free agent this winter; all things considered (age, stuff, health), I'm not sure I wouldn't take him over Schmidt or Zito. In his walk year, presumably he'll come to play, and his career numbers against the NL are superb.

I'd be willing to get blown away for Myers (Wells? Crawford?), but otherwise likely would keep him. Still a bit nervous about three injury risks (Cole, Moyer, Eaton) in the rotation, but I agree we have some decent reserve options in Germano, Mazone, maybe Castro, Happ and Segovia by mid-year.

As usual, Jason nails it with the insight that Gillick wanted to position himself to trade from strength. Whether you want a starting pitcher or a CF--two high-demand areas this winter--all roads now lead to Philadelphia.

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