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Friday, November 17, 2006

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Use this thread to discuss all the latest rumors, including Soriano's latest offering from Houston, plus Paul Hagen's report that Rowand has drawn interest from numerous clubs.

Feels a bit like herding cats.

Didn't Eaton also stab himself by accident or something like that? Not quite a vension-induced fall down the stairs, but not too far off.

6M for two seasons should be enough to retain Wolf as well.

I feel like we're about to see Lieber packaged and shipped.

"...can keep the ball on the ground."

Well, that's already a helluva argument for Eaton over Wolfie (not to mention Nunez over Helms). Then again, I hate to lose Wolf's bat! And also then again, keeping the ball down was supposedly Lieber's strengths, and he's been a gopherball machine since becoming a Phil.

Someone yesterday on sports talk.. Eskin or JodyMac was saying that Wolf might pull in something like 8 or 9 per year.

I read somewhere today that the Phils showed interest in Danny Baez (sp?).

"...can keep the ball on the ground."

You know ... I read that a couple places and then wrote it, but I'm not positive it can be backed up with rock-solid fact. His numbers wouldn't classify him as a ground ball pitcher the way Derek Lowe is a ground ball pitcher.

8 or 9 M a year is what Wolfie would be worth with no large questions. 6M+ performance bonus' is prbly the best structure.

I mean, when was the last time Wolf had a full, healthy year?

In 2003. You know - back when we were bogged down in a quagmire in Iraq and running a massive budget deficit.

I'm kind of underwhelmed by Eaton. apart from a low walk rate, his numbers look very unimpressive. shouldn't a guy who keeps the ball on the ground *not* give up 28 HR in less than 200 inning pitching in San Diego? seems to me like a younger, more injury-prone Jon Lieber. (never seen him pitch, so I'm not talking about stuff or anything, just numbers.)

Well, I don't mind the Eaton siging, and am hoping that Wolfie is still being pursued, only so that Lieber can be unloaded.

Not overwhelmed or underwhelmed by Eaton rumors. Only thing is that he has an injury-riddled past. Don't want to give this type of guy a 3 or 4-yr contract.

Guess it all depends on how the secondary starting pitching market plays out and what the Phils' options are for Wolf.

Well, nobody is a GB pitcher like Derek Lowe...he is probably one of the most extreme GB pitchers of all time.

Investigating the numbers a bit, he is not a GB pitcher at all! Guys like Lowe and Webb get around 65% GB. Lieber and Lidle were right around 50%, Padilla and Myers, 45%.

Eaton: 37-40% the last three years, or almost exactly as high (low) a percentage as Wolf. He may have an intriguing upside, but not because he keeps the ball on the ground.

The fact that Eaton could get $8M per is a joke. Given this market, Lieber is a perfectly good investment and there is no reason to trade him. We would love to get a guy for a 1 year $8M with Lieber's track record.

Just reporting on what scouts have written about him in the past. I agree, the numbers don't match that report at all.

Jason, I'm not trying to call you out, just commenting on his stats. and he did induce about 56% GB in his 2003 season, which was his best. but then he follows it up with 47% GB in 2004 season, when he was 10th in the NL in HR allowed. he is slightly above 50% GB for his career. I wonder if this is an injury thing, or a mechanics thing, or what - because his variance in GB/FB seems strange.

He's had a lot of injuries. The tendon injury in his pitching finger could have a lot to do with the variance later in his career.

Couldn't agree more kdon! As it stands right now, Phils need at least one more SP. Lieber has his faults, no doubt, but to trade a major-league SP without a capable replacements is ridiculous! Hopefully, he'll arrive in better shape come February. And for the cynics among us: he'll be playing for a contract in 2007!


"...can keep the ball on the ground."

Eaton has given up too many HRs. I suspect part of his problem is falling behind too many hitters. I wouldn't mind an Eaton signing if Gillick can acquire a couple decent arms in the bullpen.

1999 - Podres was Phils' pitching coach. Everyone (well, almost everyone) was high on Eaton and surprised the Phils traded him away. I recall rumors that the Phils were willing to deal him because Pods believed his arm motion was going to lead to a serious breakdown. It took a while to materialize, but sho' 'nuff -- rotator cuff surgery. Geez, I miss Pods!

Eaton is a good gamble. With some young pitching in the pipeline, a physical breakdown probably would be no great disaster for the team. And, if he's gotten good advice about the motion, reconstructed it, he might be a big plus surprise.

Adding Eaton and a releiver would allow a lot more flexibilty to make trades during the December GM meetings.

Delucci is a key. He should remain via arbitration regardless.

Soriano's value as a backup to an Utley or Howard injury also. That could be 6 years of an extra 2B allstar in the OF.

Gillick is all about flexibility and building the organization from top to bottom. Gillick selling the plus's of the team to free agents will take some time to get used to.

ace: Dellucci is gone. That's already been reported. He won't be back unless he gets no other offers and that seems highly unlikely.

Jason I hope you appreciate the irony: Of that second tier of FA pitchers you listed , the best one on the list is Padilla.

I agree that Eaton could be a good gamble - but 3/4 years at $8M is a lot of money to put on the table for a longshot.

Oooops! Sorry about that - Pods wasn't the official pitching coach in 1999, but a spring training "consultant". I think the coach was Cloninger.

Let's see how Padilla performs after he signs for about 4 years at $30M. It could be interesting!

It would be nice to pick up Eaton and retain Wolf as well. It would be just as nice to see donut boy depart, although I think Lieber will have more success than Moyer this year. I know he is a nice mentor, but something scares me about a two year commitment to a 44 year old.

As much as I am skeptical of Eaton, the myriad bizarre injuries do have one upside, as Phil Rogers notes: he's one of the few free agents with relatively little wear-and-tear on his arm (except for, you know, the surgery). In this day and age, and with this free agent crop, that might constitute a legitimate competitive advantage.

ae, Hardball Times has Eaton at a GB% of 37.9 in 2004. Am I missing something?

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/stats/players/index.php?lastName=Eaton

I still don't get why you would sign Eaton for 3 or 4 years at $8M per year and then trade Lieber who is signed for ONE year at $8M. Lieber's contract has far less risk and he has a better track record than Eaton, as well as being more suited to CBP. My assumption is that Eaton/Batista etc. is a fill-in for Wolf and that the big boy isn't going anywhere.

kdon, I was getting my numbers by hand from ESPN. I think the difference is I was calculating ground-outs as a percentage of total outs, rather than groundballs as a percentage of total batted balls, which is what the Hardball Times number is.

following up on my Kei Igawa comment in the last thread, MLBTradeRumors posted an estimate of his posting fee at about $17M. given the highly questionable scouting reports, that seems way too high. like five or six times too high.

Lieber is capable of having a fine season next year, and he is a bargain at the going rates, as somebody else mentioned. I'd be thrilled if he was our #3 starter for most of next season. Hopefully Hamels can stay healthy.

Something tells me that Wolf will be going elsewhere this off season. Don't know much about Eaton, but from what I've read, I'd be satisfied with that signing in lieu of Wolf--not overly excited, but satisfied.

IIRC, Eaton wouldn't cost a draft pick. Given that the Phils don't have a position player in their entire system who looks like a solid bet to play full-time, that's a big deal; we gotta re-stock.

I'd rather have Wolf at two years for $14 million total (my guess at the floor of what he'd take) than Eaton for 3/24. But I'd rather have Eaton on that deal than some of the madness I foresee for guys like Weaver and Suppan.

Agreed, djafi. Suppan and Weaver are going to be way overpriced because of the WS. I'm glad the Phillies haven't been linked to either of them. Again, I'm fine with Eaton over Wolf (or guys like Batista or Lilly), just don't think we should move Lieber to do it.

And you are right about the draft pick, Eaton is not class A, so no draft picks.

Oh and ae, caulculating the numbers by hand?! This is the 21st century man!

You're right about the dicrepency though. Whatever numbers you use, however, Eaton is no groundball pitcher...you'd think even the "scouts" could look at some data every now and again.

rrrr! That should be "discrepancy"!

The Phillies are looking at Eaton and maybe Estrada (is that rumor totally dead?). Why stop there when it comes to bringing back ex-prospects? Maybe we can bring back Ryne Sandberg and Fergie Jenkins, too.

Eaton is intriguing, but not at $8 ml. annually for 3 to 4 years . . . that's absurd for somebody with his iffy track record. I hope they re-sign Wolf. And I believe in the power of the contract year, so I'm not in a hurry to trade Lieber (tho' I hope he gets in better shape by Feb.).

The Estrada rumor seems to have quieted some. Gillick and Manuel are pleased with Ruiz and Coste. I also see no need to add Estrada but it would not hurt if they did. Ruiz and Coste are above average fielders with above average arms and call a good game per the pitchers. Any offense from them is a plus and Ruiz is probably the fastest catcher in the majors. Estrada has a good arm and a good fielder, however he has fallen out of grace with the pitchers over questionalbe game calling. He is a lefty with good offense and that would add some variety to the lineup. By adding him then Coste moves to the super utility role (1B, 3B, LF, C).
So basically they do not really need him. The pluses are mostly on offense but this team is set on offense.

If the Phillies win the Sorino sweepstakes, then trade Burrell for a bag o baseballs. I think Molina or Barajas will be relatively cheap at the winter meetings.I'd still like to see Gary Matthews Jr here (at around 8 mill/yr for four yrs ONLY)Trade Rowand for 2 relievers or one starter (from White Sox). I don't want Eaton .. a younger Corey Lidle. If after all that, you still need bullpen, sign Bradford or Justin Lehr

sorry.. SORIANO

Gary Matthews Jr at $8 million/4 years? Es loco? Rowand will make half of that and is a better player.

Re: Estrada Rumors

...and Jaramillo tore it up in the AFL!

btw, the Astros offered Soriano a contract today.

i think eaton would be a horrible signing for 3-4 years at 8 mil a year. he's injury prone and his #'s don't project well for a hitters park like the Cit considering he was never all that great in a pitchers park in san deigo. i'd rather see a phills farmhand step in like happ or segovia before eaton at that steep of price. now if eaton came for 2 years at 5 mil per than that's a different story.

gary matthews jr. had a bang-up year, he will never repeat it again. he'll cah in then disappoint, much like derosa will.

carson: Came across this tidbit about Eaton: He averaged just five innings per start this season, he's never topped 200 innings in his career, and among pitchers who have averaged at least 20 starts per year since 2000, Eaton ranks 80th in innings pitched with 854. Phils better bolster that bullpen.

Also see that another Japanese pitcher, Kei Igawa, was posted. He's 27 and a lefty who went 13-8, 3.11 last season, but Gillick probably wouldn't have an interest unless Wolfie goes elsewhere.

carson - I totally agree. Living in San Diego, I have seen an awful lot of Padres games, and from memory, I can only recall him winning games at Petco, every single one of them being close.

Every one of his games were very close, never a blowout, and in those, he usually gave up a homer. As for his away games, he lost nearly every single time.

Putting somebody like him in a hitters park like CBP only spells doom.

Clout, the scouting reports I've read on Igawa, Wolf seems like a good comparable. 6 feet tall, 190 lbs lefty with 88-91 fastball. Not a groundball pitcher and gets most of his strikeouts with fastball up in the zone. Here's a quote from one scout "He’s a fringe frontline guy, for me, somewhere between that innings eater at No. 4 and the occasional dominant start that good No. 3’s can display five or six times a year. " Issue is the posting fee. If a solid #4 starter gets $7M a year, figure a 3 year deal with posting should be around $20M. Perhaps $5M posting and 3 year contract for $15M ? But I would rather Phils focus on Wolf. Agree with Carson on Eaton. Although he has good stuff, he is always injured and doesn't give you innings. I don't see him turning around at age 29 and wouldn't invest $24M in him.

A comment on the Manny versus Soriano discussion that has been on this blog the past week or so. Although Manny is a superior player, he doesn't represent better value despite his 2 year contract. Boston will demand a boatload of talent for him, preferably top prospects, which the Phils have very few. Soriano on the other hand only costs you draft picks. I am torn on the Phils pursuit of Soriano. I think he is an amazing talent who possesses power and speed. He is also very versatile and expect his outfield play will improve. I also think Gillick sees Soriano as a hedge if they cannot ink Utley to a long term contract. And with Ryan Howard and Utley in their primes and under contract in a very winnable NL, I think the Phils need to aggressively pursue players that can put them over the top now. However, Soriano is a free swinger who strikes way too much in a lineup devoid of contact hitters. And I fear the Phils being burdened with yet another long term contract which paralyzes them as Soriano ages and his skills decline. Gillick has some tough decisions this offseason that will define this franchise for the next 2 or 3 seasons.

Another name I would like to throw out to the Beerleager community -- Moises Alou. I know he is old and injury prone, but he is available and likely a 1 year deal for about $9M would get him. Has posted .900+ OPS the past three seasons and gives us a needed right handed power bat. As a type A free agent, he would cost you draft picks.

I should add that I like that Alou walks nearly as much as he strikes out and still has some of the quickest hands in baseball. The question is do the Phils want him and would he want to play for the Phils.

Alou has always been an injury risk, and moreso now that he's past 40. Although he's still a productive hitter, I just don't think he can be counted on for a full season. I was all for getting Sheffield, but in general I don't think Giants-type quick fixes are the way to go here.

in re Igawa, as I posted above, rumors put his fee alone in the $15-20M range.

I think that everyone agrees here that Soriano brings some definite pluses (speed & power) and minuses (low OBP, high K's, questionable D).

It is time for the Phils' ownership to put up or shut up. At this point, I can see the only reason for not giving a long-term contract to Soriano is the no-trade clause BUT THIS ISSUE BECOMES IRREVELANT if Soriano gets 5 yrs or more in his deal.

Since Soriano will be a 10 and 5 guy in the 5th year of his deal, he automatically gets the ability to reject a deal. Thus, it will be difficult to move Soriano at the end of his 5th year regardless or not he has a no-trade clause. Mute point.

Since Gillick's philosophy is not to sign large contracts with free agnet pitchers, I can accept the rational even though this team needs pitching over offense. If the Phils don't get Soriano or someone of his ilk, it means that the Phils just want to save money.

Sadly, I am willing to bet that Phils chances of getting Soriano are 25/75 against. SHOW Soriano the money!

Plus, if the Phils are so desperate to count pennies, they could move both Rowand and Conine if they acquire a big bat for RF. Saves them about $6 million right there.

MG, I can't imagine there's any market for Conine at all, no matter how much money we're willing to throw in.

and the FNTC issue is not irrelevant if Soriano gets 5+ years, because obviously he doesn't get the 10-and-5 benefit until the fifth year. you're still giving him FNTC rights in the first four years.

Agree about Conine. It would be hard to move him at this point until Phils pick up a decent portion.

Disagree about relevancy of no-trade clause for first 4 years. Big issue with acquiring Soriano is paying him big money in a 6th or 7th year when he is 37 and 38 and unlikely to produce at great levels.

Es loco is correct. I've become desensitized to it. What’s that? Mark Derosa gets three years, $13 million? Adam Eaton feels he’s worth four-years, $24 million? Randy Wolf wants at least $9 million a season? Blah, blah, blah.

The absurdity can be summarized by Jon Lieber’s contract. Lieber was a pretty big signing, not huge, not totally unfair, but still one of the bigger signings of the 2004 offseason. Two seasons later, with the market even more bloated, the final year of Lieber’s back-loaded contract - $7.5 million – is a total steal, even for Lieber, who is not one of my favorites and is clearly on his way out. Be that as it may, I'll bet St. Louis, Boston, and all the other teams that passed at the trade deadline are kicking themselves right now.

The good deals command more attention. For example, Wes Helms received a surprisingly reasonable contract. As it turns out, he turned down more money from the Yankees. That’s noteworthy.

Something I picked up from the stories that came out of the GM meetings is how Gillick and others are getting blindsided by how much this particularly poor batch of free agents are commanding. It’s enough to say “screw it. We’ll save our picks and pour all the money saved into player development.”

Also, Hayes reported this morning that Eaton is next in line after Wolf on Gillick's list of free agent pitching. I don't want to make it sound like I'm pimping Eaton, but that's where I'd line him up, too.

Jason: Really? Ahead of Padilla? Did you see the stats on Eaton I posted above?

Something to consider before signing Soriano to a $100M+ long-term contract:

Since construction costs of a new stadium will be exempt from revenue-sharing, the Yankees are reportedly able to self-finance the entire cost of their new stadium.
Assuming that a high percentage of revenue distributed to other clubs is contributed by the Yankees, the current stream of record revenue will recede and owners will be forced to reconsider the current state of fiscal insanity.

With less revenue to throw around, the free-agent market beyond the current off-season could become less of a seller's market. Additionally, players with current long-term contracts might be available at bargain prices as clubs attempt to shed salary.

Granted, this scenario is based largely on assumptions. The Yankees contribution to revenue-sharing may not be significant relative to the entire revenue stream and the stadium costs/revenue sharing details may be sketchy (perhaps another poster can provide more details), but Soriano-like contracts are risky even during the best of times. With long-term commitments to Myers, Utley, and Howard coming along in the next few years, I’d hate to see a regretful Gillick stuck with Soriano until 2012 or 2013. We've already been down that road before.

Clout: The downside on Padilla is that his agent is reportedly Jim Beam.

What exactly would make you think the Phils would have Padilla on any list besides one containing 'persona non grata'? Could it have been any more evident they didn't want him around than by trading him for a warm body who didn't even make it through the Grapefruit League? I mean, think what you want about Padilla, but why even mention his name and the Phillies in the same breath? Larry Bowa has a better chance of making a comeback in red pinstripes.

BM, I don't want to start the whole Manny/Soriano thing again, but what makes you thing the Red Sox want a "boatload of talent" for him. The last two seasons he was put on waivers, meaning the Red Sox were willing to shed his salary for NO talent.

I think saying "screw it" might be the way to go too. If guys like Soriano and Eaton and WOlf are going to get ridiculous contracts, I would pick up (1) a cheap 5th starter (Batista), (2) one bullpen arm (Weathers) and (3) a LH outfielder to platoon with Conine and call it an offseason.

I was actually going to make a joke about Padilla and Nicaragua's finest, but then I looked it up online and it turns out like 200 people died recently when someone poisoned some moonshine.

Seriously, that guy has a problem. As a person, I hope he rights himself, but as a baseball player, I wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole.

kdon, Because Manny only has 2 years remaining on his contract and the market has changed, he has trade value. The RedSox are no longer willing to simply give him away. Look what the Yanks got for Sheffield. I think it would take a similar package.

kdon- "I would pick up (1) a cheap 5th starter (Batista), (2) one bullpen arm (Weathers) and (3) a LH outfielder to platoon with Conine and call it an offseason."...i pretty much agree with you there. maybe addanother bullpen arm, and shoot for glory.

Yes to both kdon and carson, it's such a crapshoot out there, I'd buy cheap no names overprice brand named players this year.

Billy Mac mentioned Moises Alou. I remember when he was considered the best player in baseball. He and Conine could take turns sitting in the wheelchair in the outfield.

Clout: I have a soft spot for Padilla, but I didn't even consider him when I wrote that. They're not bringing him back.

I see where the Mets are close to signing Alou to a two year deal, taking them out of the Soriano race.

Padilla will not even be considered by the Phillies

Just because a player was placed on waivers doesn't mean teams don't want anything for him, many teams regularly place ALL of their players on waivers. Since teams have the right to pull a player back of they get claimed (or dump the salary, or try to work a deal), putting a player on waivers really means nothing.

A lot of you guys sound like the Phillies ownership group, griping about the going rate for free agent talent. What difference does it make to us if guys of the Wolf/Eaton class get $8-$9 million a year instead of $6-$7 million? That's a difference of $6 million over 3 years, hardly enough to notice amid a $90 million annual payroll. If going $2 million over budget is an issue, you can write off the playoffs right now.

Also, someone above said Eaton's operation was on his shoulder. I was under the impression it was his elbow. If it was a shoulder, definitely pass; Schilling is the only guy I can think of who has pitched better after a shoulder injury, and his operation was by a local surgeon who doesn't do many baseball players.

i think the mets signing alou is a great move. alou is great with the bat. rest him once or twice a week and you've got yourself a top-of-the-line outfielder...fricken mets!

Pujols Arrested for Crack Possession
according to

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

bob D.. trust me it want ALBERT.. It was some guy in the dodgers farm system.. forget his first name.. he was caught w/ 130 bags o crack his name starts w/ a K kenjhshin or some variation

kengshill.. to be precise

Jason, maverick, RSB et al: I agree the Phils ain't bringing Padilla back. My point was that Padilla is a much better pitcher than Eaton, will perform better going forward and it's ironic they gave him away for nothing and are now looking at signing lesser free agents.

the padilla trade sucked...we can all agree on that right?!

Joe Borowski says he wants to stay on the East Coast. If the Phils are going to try for the playoffs next season, then signing this guy makes sense. He'd be a decent setup for Gordon and when Gordon breaks down can slide into a closer's role. Signing Soriano will be meaningless if they don't upgrade both the rotation and the bullpen.
Despite what you read on this board, the Phils pitching is not among the best in the NL. They were 11th in ERA and opponents OPS was .798, worst in the NL last season. And a season is 160 games, not the last 40.
History is littered with failed teams that thought they could outscore the opposition by adding offense and make the playoffs in spite of medicore pitching.

Yeah, like those 2006 Cardinals. Their mediocre pitching really did them in.

I don't know Carson, I think a lot of people have tried to view the Padilla move as addition by substraction. Remember when he got his DUI in the middle of the season...this board was full of people saying good riddance.

It's crap of course - put Padilla in the rotation instead of Floyd or Madson and the Phillies make the playoffs - but people still believed it.

Angels get Justin Spier: 4 years, 18 million.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6188086

maverick: Do you live in an alternate universe, a place where Soriano is better than Manny Ramirez, Brett Myers is better than Cris Carpenter and strikeouts are better than walks?
Your posts suggest that.
In the real world, however, the Cardinals pitchers were 5th out of 14 teams in allowing fewest runs, 5th in fewest walks and had a post-season WHIP of 1.16. Not to mention Carpenter was better than anyone on the Phillies staff and the bullpen better and deeper. To the extent Cards pitching had a weak link, it was at the back end of their rotation (Marquis, Ponson etc.), where it can do little harm when the rest of your staff is good. Late in the season and into post-season (when Weaver & Reyes finally got going) their pitching was damn good. But keep on dreamin'.

Clout, I'm not sure your contention that Padilla, from here on out, will be better than Eaton is a sure thing -- of course Padilla is more talented, but you never know when the alcohol-induced plunge off those lousy Central American roads is coming. It's ironic, because he has a pretty strong history of avoiding arm problems, but I think the front office reached the conclusion that his head was as much a risk as a guy like Eaton's arm. With most teams I would pooh-pooh the "bad clubhouse influence" stuff, but the Phillies seem to have a history of making problems like that worse rather than better. That said, I, like you, would have preferred not to trade away Padilla, at least not for nothing. But that's in the rear-view mirror now. Given my preference for going into the season with six starters, I see no reason not to pursue Eaton.

Fox reported that the Sox are close to trading Garland to the Rangers. If this happens, then the Sox would probably be not be trading any other starters.

Based on what the Rangers are offering (a good prospect), it seems Garland could be had for someone like Gonzalez or Carrasco. He is owed $22M in the next two years but he would definately be a better investment than Eaton. I'm a little dissapointed the Phillies haven't even been linked to the White Sox in any trades (except here). It's like Gillick doesn't want to explore a creative way to land a starter - it's all Burrell and Soriano, all the time.

No Clout, no alternate universe here. Although I do wish that I lived in a world where you wouldn't accuse me of saying things I never said. I never compared the Phillies pitching to the Cardinals, never compared Myers to Carpenter, never said strikouts were better than walks. Really, your act is getting kind of tiresome.

What I did question was the quality of the Cardinal's pitching. You are right: Carpenter was the standout. So let's take a look:

Carpenter: 221 IP, 3.09 ERA
All other starters: 714.9 IP, 5.46 ERA

I apologize if ERA is not a Clout-approved statistic, but over here on Planet Maverick it's a stat that is still of some utility when it comes to evaluating pitchers. To me, that indicates a mediocre pitching staff. And it would be great if you could engage with me on the validity of that statement, as opposed to things I never wrote.

one would think rowand plus mid-level prospect would land excess chisox starter if indeed that's all it takes to get garland for the rangers.

just read that it's going to take 6 years 135 million to net soriano...wow.

Soriano signs with the Cubs. What now?

correction, 8 years. no way anyone offers that.

holy CRAP.

thank god it's not the phillies giving up this money. I'd actually rather have burrell for 2 years instead.

"Chicago radio station ESPN 1000 reported Sunday that the Cubs have signed outfielder Alfonso Soriano to an eight-year contract worth approximately $136 million."

Now we exhale and tell ourselves it's for the better. I think it probably is.

Soriano is worth more than Beltran?

I agree that's ridiculous and it's good the Phillies didn't pay it. But all this makes me wonder how far salaries are going to escalate every offseason from here on out. Who knows - in three years, this may look like a bargain.

now we can't trade burrell or rowand...at least i hope not. outfield right now is burrell, vic, and rowand. trade either of them and conine becomes a starter...yuck!

is carlos lee going to be a target of the phils now? probably not, our dumbass club will probably sign preston wilson and try to sell him as a crucial cog in the playoff machine that wwill be the 2007 phillies...please, we're not idiots.

the cubs are going crazy this offseason...ridiculous!

Seriously where did the Cubs get all this money for the offseason?!

I can see it, come April our biggest pick up will be Wes Helms. I think I just vommitted in my mouth.

Soriano at 8 years/$135 million offer - holy crap if that is true. Even by the crazy MLB standards, this is an insane offer.

Since the owners just signed the CBA, they are flush with cash. I can't wait until baseball fans have to hear in a few more years about how owners are losing money. It pissed me off so much when owners pleed poverty that is solely the result of their own making.

I saw Soriano as potentially a good thing and a bad thing. So, I'm not upset they missed out on him. It is remarkable, however, how all the better options - now even Moises Alou is taken - have evaporated so quickly in the off-season, leaving the Phillies looking dazed and confused, and with their usual wing and prayer for the wild card come next season. Plans A, B, and C are out the window, and Plan D, whatever it is, doesn't hold much promise. But ultimately Fonzie is not worth that kind of contract - not even close.

Lee is a no-brainer AL player. As in, he will still be of some use to his club after he stuffs his face to the tune of 300 pounds.

As for Plan B? Maybe this forces Gillick to get creative with a trade. Cos at this point, any Plan B obtained through free agency would probably set us back.

this frustrates me so much....when will the phils land a huge free agent. Sure, Thome was huge but that worked out for oh, two years. Gillick better have a deal up his sleeve because at this rate, I'm not sold on the 2007 Phillies.

U guys can say all you want that u r ok not getting Sori, but the options are fooking Burell and, well I guess Burrell.

Not the mention losing the perfect person to hit behind Howard

Part of it, Dude, is that I could easily see Soriano becoming Burrell in two or three seasons, and handicapping the Phillies in much the same way down the road. It doesn't necessarily mean Burrell is the only option left. Gillick has four months to work with. Let's see what happens.

I don't think it would have been a good idea to sign him for anything more than 4-5 years, so in that respect I guess its not that bad. I just wonder why free agents (except for Thome) don't seem to want to come to Philly.

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