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Wednesday, November 15, 2006


i just saw this on foxsports. it says pg definately offered him an everyday 3b job.

i'd like helms as a bench player who can come of the bench and spot howard when he needs a day off but everyday... sigh...

Pretty much agree. Especially considering how fielding seemed to regress under Manuel last season. We can't afford to have Helms' fielding regress.

On a team with a less-patient manager, I could see Helms working himself toward the bench in a month. But with Manuel, who stuck with Bell until the day he was traded, Helms would be nuts not to sign here.

Yep, last year was definately a fluke, if the numbers I gave earlier on BABIP are an indication. While it is hard to imagine any everyday 3B being worse than Nunez, I'm still not really happy about this. I might sound a little RSBesque here, but I just don't like the fit, a lumbering RH batter who strikes out a lot. He will be a worse player than Bell, and will only represent a moderate upgrade. I'd rather go with a platoon. The offense is good enough, and there gets to be a point of diminishing returns. The Phillies need to eliminate runs (hence, defense) more than they need to create them.

This should get the Phans excited to buy season tickets.

If Gillick falls for this, then I have to seriously wonder about him. One decent season of 240 at bats doesn't fill me with enthusiasm. I'd still rather have Aurilia since this is more of a temporary solution either way.

if he only gets 240 ABs next season as a backup for 3rd and 1st, well its a great pickup. if he gets 500+ ABs next year as the starter and "answer"....well, that sucks.

Hey he is better than Nunez, but then again who isn't? He is no A-Ram though. No harm in giving him a two or three year deal with the promise of starting at least this year. I wouldn't mind seeing Aurillia being added as some insurance. Maybe then we could actually get rid of Abe.

real creative solution. we signed a veteran 3rd baseman who is known to be good in the clutch and average at best in the field. sound familiar? it should, we just traded that guy to milwaukee. based solely on defense, this has the potential to be a total disaster.

Where can I order by Wes Helms replice jersey?

I will laugh if Helms and xxx relief pitcher are their major offseason acquisitions. Talk about snowballing the fans yet again.

I'm not all that sure how this is going to work. I thought this club was trying to build a little younger and with helms at 3rd, it just doesn't seem to fit with an infield of Howard, Utley, Reyes, and Ruiz. Last year I would have loved to see the Phils try to get Marte from the Indians but with Boone a free agent now, I guess guys like Helms are what's left.

terrible. I'm not sure how this would be an UPGRADE... seriously... I think we would be better off... with Nunez at 3rd everyday. I can't believe I just wrote that... considering he's been On Notice for a while to me!

this whole discussion revolves around the fact that we currently are stuck with a 3rd baseman that simply can't. nunez has never hit over his career. his 2005 .285 average was empty. he sucks so bad, so if wes helms is the best we can do as an upgrade than so be it. i don't think helms will be goog, but he'll be superior to nunez...dammit i hat him. damn, the drama queen in me is starting to return.

Exactly, Carson! It isn't glamorous, but he is a helluva lot better than what we currently have. I still have no clue why we did not have the slighest bit of interest in A-Ram. That to me is amazing. He would have been the ideal fit here. He is still young, plays a fairly decent third, and could have legitimately provided a presence behind Ryan Howard.

plain and simple, this is an Ed Wade move.

The process seems backwards to me. If you can sign Soriano without breaking the bank for good, then I'm OK with Nunez defense at third and hitting eighth. If you can't sign Soriano, then you still need that #5 hitter and might be willing to sacrifice speed and a little D to get him; Helms makes a some sense then.

I'm guessing the Soriano thing isn't going to work, PG knows it, and has a surprise up his sleeve.

his suprise is dealing burrell for crap plus eating contract, signing the over-rated eaton, dotel, and bringing rick schu out of retirement.

but seriously, i think gillick is going to use rowand to land us something of value
(5th starter, 3rd baseman)

Glad you added that "but seriously" bit Carson. I was starting to get really depressed by your comment. PG's statements about power being more valuable later in the game, after Soriano, Drew, and Lee settle somewhere, suggests that he hopes to get more than garbage for Burrell. Like you, I'm doubtful, but we'll see.

I think Carson nailed it. Not a defensive upgrade, but protection for Howard was higher on the Gillick's priority list. I'd start Helms over Nunez any day (and bring Nunez in for defensive replacement/occasional platoon, assuming he's still around). Anyone have the career fielding %'s for both Nuni and Helms (obviously, little experience at 3rd). Just curious as to how many potentials runs we surrender with the defensive downgrade. The offensive upgrade should more than compensate.

Rowand will be the big trade move. Let's just hope he brings something of value in both the OF and P depts.

dick- (haha,i just called you dick) i think gillick truly wants to build a championship squad. i just don't necessarily agree with all his strategies of doing it. but what do i know, i'm only a self-proclaimed gm on my own site. however, he cleared payroll with controversial moves so i'll stick around and see what he has up his sleeve...better that than his pants, yikes!

If Helms is brought in he will likely be the 7 or 8th hitter with the Catcher. This team does not need a big hitter hear if Soriano signs. Maybe Gillick will wise up and sign another player or trade for one (Aurilia) and just let Nunez go and eat the salary for one year. Sometimes you just need to cut your loses.
Rowand will bring in a good player, hopefully a SP from Chicago White Sox and that would round out the rotation. He is the most valuable trade commodity this team has.
The rumors have mostly died down, but if another C is brought in (Estrada) remember Chris Coste can play 3B. I feel the Ruiz/Coste at C is the best option both are strong on defense with plus arms and good game calling. Estrada had problems with game calling but is good defensively.

well, pat at least has a track record on offering players everyday rolls and then whipping the opportunity away - remember when he was saying last year that he thought vic was good for everyday in centre? then he gets rowand, and suddenly vic isn't in the picture.

I think its good insurance, I hope they don't overpay over three years (overpaying over two I could live with, and again, gillick has track record on this - stand up Nuni!). I don't think we'll have to overpay tho' - unless someone can think of anyone else spending money like the cubbies just now.

Nunez will NOT be better than helms as I pointed out in the the other thread - his best year was marginally better (in OPS only) than helm's worst.

If a better option arises through trade, i can see pat taking it, obviously enough.

Jon - we didn't get the chance to have an option with a-ram - two different stories came out in rapid succession that he was trying free-agency and then that he signed with the cubs. No one else actually got a look in.

if helms is the best we can do, than do it. better than 9 innings of nuni. i can live with 7-8 innings of helms than nuni for D...not ideal, but better than the alternative of no-hit nunez full-time.

This offseason is going downhill fast. Wes Helms as the everyday 3B? Come on. I seriously hope this is some kind of smokescreen for a different move. I still don't understand not going after Aramis more aggressively. As bad as Burrell looks sometimes I can say without a doubt that I'd rather see him than Helms batting 5th this year. I'd only like to see Helms on the Phils' bench or in the visitors' dugout.

i wonder when the phils offseason transaction train is going to get chugging?

I love Nunez's defense. Not sure what his fielding stats are exactly, but I do know that he made big plays when it mattered over there last year. A so-so bat and suspect defense is the last thing we need (just how bad is Helm's at third anway?).

Moving Burrell should be a much higher priortity than finding a replacement at 3rd. This is an addition by subtraction situation. If I have to watch Pat look at third strikes in big spots all year again, or pop up with runners on 3rd and less than 2 gone, or hobble around the outfield, I'm not sure I'll be able to take it. Maybe he'll catch on somewhere else and do well, but I'm convinced it won't happen in Philly. Seems like a nice enough guy, but...

I have a really hard time seeing how Helms is going to provide enough protection for Howard. sure, he was good in limited AB this year, but his previous highs in slugging are .458 and .450...that's not protection, that's a guy with some pop who you hit sixth or seventh. and relying on him to duplicate his RISP numbers is a terrible bet. remember Pat Burrell's RISP numbers in 2005? 1.027 OPS, 1.119 with two outs. for the last three seasons, Helm's RISP OPS is a pedestrian .829 - again, that's not protection, that's a late in the order guy with some pop.

"Moving Burrell should be a much higher priortity than finding a replacement at 3rd. This is an addition by subtraction situation."

this is the kind of thinking that guarantees another season of mediocrity. but at least we'll *feel* good about winning 83 games.

I'm sorry, I used to be a big Burrell hater, but I don't think we should move him this year. Its obvious that if we do move him we aren't going to get anything in return AND have to eat up a good part of his contract. I just don't think thats necessary. He's still offensively productive and if he does heal up during the offseason he'll probably be better than last year. Now if the Yanks, Sox, or Giants want to give us a starter or 3B for him, well trade the bum away. I just don't want to see another Abreu trade. That addition by subtraction is BS. We would have made the playoffs last year if we had Abreu.

Also I'm not a big fan of Wes Helms coming to Philadelphia. He does seem a lot like our boy David Bell. I think our best chance at a quality 3B is through a trade because free agency is pretty bare after A-Ram left.

Zach, I agree with you 100%. I felt the same way about Burrell. If you missed my earlier post in another thread, I did answer your question about Stockton. I went there when it was called Stockton State College. Got my Bachelors Degree there amongst the pines.

I did think it was strange that Carson and DQ both had hand injuries. Carson, you are ripping it up tonight with good points about no hit nuni.

My thoughts on Helms: Ho hum.

Iwamura to Devil Rays, 4.5M +, if they can sign him.


The funniest type I've seen in a while, too...

--- from the article ---
Iwamura was Japan's starting third baseball in the World Baseball Classic last spring. He was a six-time Gold Glove winner.

No big loss, as he's only the 3rd baseball....

two years, club option for the third.
Ken Rosenthal estimates that the deal will total $5.5M-6M for the two years.

still don't like it.

What was the point of this acquisition? Helms is not the answer to providing protection for Howard. Even Rollins can provide better protection than Helms. And we just downgraded the defense, when we should be trying hard to improve it.

If you're going this way, why not take a flyer on a guy like BJ Upton, who's worn out his welcome, is not in TBay's plans (with Iwamura on the radar) and is still very young and has a lot of potential? I'd much rather see a young guy with big upside struggle a little than a 'veteran' that costs more and will not get better. If Helms tanks, CM will only bench him in late July or early August, when the team is 8 games out of the wild card. He'll replace him with Nunez. Can't wait!

This seems to indicate that if Rowand is traded, then it will be for a starter, not a 3B. We could get both from Colorado if we put the right package together, perhaps throwing in Floyd.

It's not bad for two years. Let him start this year, but go get a decent back-up in Aurillia. I know if Helms struggles, I do not want No Hit Nuni in there!

George S., I really think that's the most disappointing thing about this acquisition. there were reportedly a variety of opportunities to think outside the box on the 3B question - internationals, both prospects and vets available for trade - and instead we sign a league-average, no-glove FA coming off a career year.

How is it that it seems that everyone thinks Nunez is some kind of defense whiz? A solid defender - sure but I don't think Nunez is frankly that much better than Bell two years ago.

Got to see alot of Sox games last year on baseball ticket and Lowell is a far superior defensive 3B than Nunez.

Helms over Nunez? I guess but it especially makes Nunez worthless since he is an awful pinch-hitter. Plus, I am willing to see how patient Phils' fans are after Helms boots a few balls in April if they sign him.

I saw Helms play a lot this year and he seemed locked in at the plate. This is a piece to the puzzle and it didn't break the bank. Gillick has built champs in the past and he knows what's at stake here. They don't need a superstar at every position...this is a good role player that may have figured it out last year.

ok so it's done. i hope manuel is smart enough to use helms and nunez the proper way to get the most out of them.

Although offense isn't the problem, if this is really our "answer" at 3b it is quite a dissapointment. He's a utilityman, plain and simple. I'd much rather roll the dice on Garciaparra or swing a trade. A slight upgrade, sure, but not one thats necessarily better than what David Bell was giving us.

Headline in April: "Wes Helms: Missing Piece to the Championship Puzzle?"

Headline in July: "How will the Phils unload Wes Helms?"

Yeah Lake Fred I go to school here in Stockton right now. Love it here. How long ago did you attend?

On Topic: Really disappointed bout Helms. Who knows though? He may surprise us and have a repeat year. So this pretty much guarantees Rowand is leaving for pitching if hes being traded at all. This also means that we need Soriano more so than before. Helms will not be the batter we need behind Howard. I hope this is just the tip of the iceberg for Gillick and this is just a very small piece of a good offseason, but as a Phillies phan for many years I'm conditioned to think otherwise.

ESPN is reporting this as done. 2 years for approximately $5.5 million, with an option for a third. Don't know whether it's a team and/or player option.

Kudos to Gillick for the limited two-year deal that's not going to break the team financially. Even if all we get out of it is a good pinch-hitter with pop, it beats some of last year's signings in Nunez and Alex S. "not retired" Gonzalez. After DeRosa's deal, this could've been a lot worse.

This is pointless. It may not be a popular sentiment, but I'd rather take Nunez's glove and give away the 8th hole than hear "past a diving Helms!" for the entire season.

Also, our stable of mediocre pitchers just got mediocre-er.

it's not a terrible deal, but "kudos" is going way too far.

Wouldn't a deal like they gave Helms been close to enought to Nomar. If you have a capable 3rd baseman on the roster wouldn't it have been worth it to take a shot at Nomar?

Helms is an excellent bat off the bench, especially vs. LHP. I like this move as it gives Cholly more late inning options.

The big question is will they use him that way? If they try to make him the everyday 3Bman, this will be a disaster. And didn't PG say that Nunez would be the everyday guy at 3B?

Bottom line: If they use him properly this is a good signing, better than DeRosa.

That’s a pretty fair assessment, Clout.

I'm not thrilled with the signing, ae. But with all the predictions of "drunken sailor" front offices this year, I am relieved that Helms didn't get a DeRosa contract. Perhaps "kudos" was a little strong. I agree with clout.

As i said in a prior thread: Helms, Eaton, Weathers and excuses for why we won't see Soriano. Don't even think Rowand will be traded

I agree Clout - Best use of Nunez/Helms combo is starting Nunez and using Helms as bat off bench/starter against LHP.

Helms does a pretty good job hitting LHP and Nunez is a much better hitter when he starts vs. pinch hitting althout it is still a pretty low bar for offense.

What about the part where we trade Burrell to Seattle for Beltre??

as lake fred indicated carson = drama queen

I look at this in two ways: 1. With A-Ram off the market, it's financially responsible to sign a lower market player. Derosa got 3 years - 13 million from the cubs, which, is about what we're probably looking at here. Considering it leaves more money for pitching and given his power potential, I'll take it. 2. Two years ago, the Phils drafted 3B Micheal Constanzo with their top pick. He's a very talented, left handed hitting power hitter, who is almost major league ready. Now, if you sign a guy for the long term, that wipes out all plans on Constanzo. They developed Howard, Utley, about two years we'll have Constanzo to look at. A 2 to 3 year deal for helms makes sense and it gives them alot of flexability for the future.

I look at this in two ways: 1. With A-Ram off the market, it's financially responsible to sign a lower market player. Derosa got 3 years - 13 million from the cubs, which, is about what we're probably looking at here. Considering it leaves more money for pitching and given his power potential, I'll take it. 2. Two years ago, the Phils drafted 3B Micheal Constanzo with their top pick. He's a very talented, left handed hitting power hitter, who is almost major league ready. Now, if you sign a guy for the long term, that wipes out all plans on Constanzo. They developed Howard, Utley, about two years we'll have Constanzo to look at. A 2 to 3 year deal for helms makes sense and it gives them alot of flexability for the future.

Also, Sheffield and A-Ram are off the market. If Sorianoo does come to Philly or goes elsewhere and Lee follows, teams are going to start looking to make a deal for Burrell. Teams like the Cubs, the Dodgers, Angels, Mariners; Who all have good young pitching in their systems and a few quality veterens that could easily be parted with. Could perhaps get a Jaque Jones and rhp Micheal Wurtz from the cubs; Perhaps even Beltre and move him to left. Tampa Bay is also rumored to be making alot of moves, already winning the bid for the Jap 3B and making an offer to Mulder. If you move burrell, maybe throw in madsen and floyd, you could Carl Crawford or perhaps Baldelli and a young pitcher.

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