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Thursday, November 23, 2006


Don't read this before eating your turkey! It will make you sick!
1. The Astros have improved their offer to Carlos Lee, going to $73 million over five years, an NL executive told the Houston Chronicle.
2. Dodgers signed outfielder Juan Pierre, who had been with the Cubs, to a five-year, $45 million contract.
3. Angels agreed to terms with outfielder Gary Matthews Jr., who had been with the Rangers, on a five-year, $50 million contract.
1. Lee is a corner outfielder/slugger with fair speed. Lifetime OPS: .835. The far cheaper Pat Burrell's lifetime OPS: .890
2. Pierre is a player whose only skills are OB and SB. His OB % the past 2 seasons: .326 and .330. Not even a Type A free agent.
3. Gary Matthews is a fine defensive oufielder who has hit above .276 only once in his career (his '06 walk year), has had an OPS above .800 only once in his career (his '06 walk year) and, despite playing in one of the top 3 hitter's parks in the big leagues, has never hit 20 HRs.

The less Gillick does, given this utter waste of money, the more I like him.

wonder who pat's having thanksgiving dinner with this year?

wow clout a post i agree with

happy thanksgiving fellow beerleaguers.

I kind of like Spaghetti-Os.

I bet the Phils season ticket sales aren't doing too hot this time of year.

uhh the bat's OPS the past 2 years is .890 . .842 OPS for his career. Which is still higher then Soriano's .836 career OPS or Lee's.

Buster Olney said on ESPN that we're "heavily in the mix" for Carlos Lee.

Either Pat's getting desperate or Olney's incorrect...Gillick has said numerous times that he doesn't want to swing a trade for Man-Ram because he can't do a thing on defense, so why would he attempt to go after Lee when he's just as bad as Manny?

I have a feeling that if Gillick is indeed targeting Lee, the only reason is because he's seeing season ticket sales fall off the charts..

Here comments from Olney blog about stupidity of Gillick in his pursuit of Lee:

"If the Phillies wind up winning this bidding, it's doubtful that there will be a more glaring example of a front-office strategic flip-flop that costs the team tens of millions of dollars: On July 30, the Phillies essentially gave away on-base percentage machine Bobby Abreu to the Yankees because they wanted to get out from underneath the $23 million still owed to him, in '06 and '07 salary. And now, four months later, they are on the verge of signing another player who is A) roughly the same age (Abreu is 32, Lee is 30); B) much worse defensively, considering his range and throwing arm; C) an inferior athlete -- Lee's thickening body greatly concerns some general managers; and D) much, much, much more expensive, with the team's financial obligation for an impact corner outfielder increasing by perhaps as much as $85 million, if the Phillies' bid takes them over $100 million."

Food has digested. Tim is surprised that he is agreeing with clout. I have found clout's posts since the offseason to be quite well thought and written. I find I am in agreement with most of his writings.

I am in total shock of the Gary Matthews, Jr. waste of money spent by the LA Angels. Like that Dierks Bentley song, they will be asking themselves "What was I thinking?" Too much Thanksgiving wine in LA!

Olney is Olney, but c'mon. Enough of Abreu. Bobby was a great fanstasy player for the Phils, but that was it. It wasn't working with him and if he had stayed it never would have worked. He was content with his numbers but never wanted to make a difference. And Buster, did you ever watch Bobby play the outfield? He was like Bump Baily out there before Hobbs challenged him. And I liked Bobby, but he HAD to go. Unfortunately, we didn't get enough for him, but he sucked and was anemic in the 1st half.
Pat could turn out to be one of those guys who are good every other year, so I am in agreement that Pat & Lee are the same thing, so it is pointless to break the bank the Michelin Man. Plus, it ain't Pat's team anymore and I think he realizes that and wants to be part of the Utley Howard Machine. I am willing to deal with Burrell for one more year as long as he gets the dams bat off his shoulder and learns not to be afraif of an inside fastball. If he treated inside fastballs like he does with the women in the crowd, he would knock in 200 runs.

Reed: Please offer one single piece of evidence that the Phillies failure to make the playoffs was solely the fault of Abreu. You say "It wasn't working with him and if he had stayed it never would have worked." It wasn't working with the other 24 either, but you single him out. Why?

Clout, do you remember Abreu in red pinstripes? Do you remember his inability to get a clutch hit? Do you remember him botching fly balls? Do you remember the fans and what they thought of him? Did you see him with the Yanks? He was a completely different player with them. I am not blaming him at all for anything. Matter of fact, I did not want to see him go and I did not like the trade. I was and am a huge Bobby fan. I am by no means putting all the blame on him. I think Burrell and our pitching and 1st half Jimmy and suspect managing and on and on and on was to blame -- it was a collective effort. Bobby hurt us with his 1st half performance with what we got in return. Essentially, it was the Bobbys & the Burrells & the Lieberthals that represented an era of almost there & Ed Wade. They have new centerpieces that are hungry and play the game right. So, that is what I mean by "not working". It is amazing to watch Bobby with the Yanks, though. If we had Yankee Bobby, this would all be moot. I have never seen him hustle this much before.
Did not mean to offend.

"I think Burrell and our pitching and 1st half Jimmy and suspect managing and on and on and on was to blame."

I would have to agree. That's completely different from your first post and certainly closer to the mark.

"It appears to be down to the Orioles, Phillies and Astros for Carlos Lee, and the bidding has gotten insane. It's believed the Orioles have offered as much as a six-year contract worth about $80 million to $90 million, according to the Baltimore Sun." - Houston Chronicle

As the bidding for Lee continues to escalate towards $100 million, Pat Burrell is looking like a much better option for the Phillies in ’07.

The Phillies desperately need to go after pitching. They have over abundance of outfielders with trade value and money to spend. Let’s not settle for a marginal number 5. There are aces out there that can be had. I believe that the deal for Matsuzaka will certainly skew the FA market. Sometimes, though, you need to overpay for pitching. I would rather overpay for a Zito or a Schmidt before throwing money at an unproven commodity like Matsuzaka.

Good pitching wins championships – not overweight, over-priced left fielders.

Stop complimenting Gillick for not spending money. The market has changed and if the Phillies do not adapt then they will have another non playoff year. Gillick is going to get a standing ovation here when he refuses to give Zito 75 million but what good will that do for us.

sorry guys but no way is Carlos Lee worth that kind of money. I hate to say it cause i've always considered the phils cheap but i'd rather see them not overspend this year on inferior talent and go after the FA's next year or during the season via trade.

THe free agent class next year is supposed to be 10x better especially for pitching. I think the offense would be fine if you put Victorino/Rowand up towards the top of the lineup 1 & 2 and move ROllins down to the 5hole. THat would require Burrell to be traded which i'm not sure is possible. But his salary is starting to look like a bargain compared to the $ being offered lately.

By the way to all you wishing on Gagne. THere are SERIOUS rumors out there about him and ROIDS so i do not expect to see him in phillies pinstripes. If you look at his career in LA and add the steriods to the mix it starts to make sense why he has broken down. It looks like most guys that were on the stuff for extended periods of time before it was outlawed are now all just a shell of themselves if not totally broken down and out of the game entirely.

by the way this black friday i will be bringing sexy back at Tiki Bobs! Just ask for the fat blonde bartender...thats me!

Astros reportedly get Lee for six years @ $100 mil!

That's just insanity.

You know who must be absolutely kicking themselves this off season? David Wright and Jose Reyes.

How about Wes Helms? He could have held out for a couple million more.

Correct on Gagne...prevailing thought by GM's, scouts and players is that the great seasons were juice aided and a reason he cannot recover from this...and if he does, won't be effective.

I wish PG would quit effing around and put together a sick package that could get Toronto to move Wells...would solve a lot of non-pitching problems.

Hopefully, Gillick's reluctance to get involved in the current state of fiscal insanity will pay amends following the 2007 season and beyond.

A list of notable potential free agents following the 2007 season (courtesy
Bobby Abreu; Jeremy Affeldt; Moises Alou; Brad Ausmus; Danys Baez; Michael Barrett; Armando Benitez; Kris Benson; Milton Bradley; Russell Branyan;
Mark Buerhle; Paul Byrd; Eric Byrnes; Mike Cameron Chris Carpenter; Hector Carrasco; Sean Casey; Luis Castillo; Ramon Castro; Roger Cedeno; Shawn Chacon; Tony Clark; Matt Clement; Bartolo Colon; Francisco Cordero; Vic Darensbourg; Jeff DaVanon; Doug Davis; Adam Dunn; Jermaine Dye; Ramon E. Martinez; Damion Easley; Scott Elarton; Josh Fogg; Casey Fossum; Freddy Garcia; Marcus Giles; Wiki Gonzalez; Carlos Guillen; Livan Hernandez; Eric Hinske; Trevor Hoffman; Torii Hunter; Brandon Inge; Jason Isringhausen; Cesar Izturis; Geoff Jenkins; Jason Jennings; Todd Jones; Andruw Jones; Jorge Julio; Jason Kendall; Joe Kennedy; Bobby Kielty; Byung-Hyun Kim; Corey Koskie;
Jason LaRue; Jon Lieber; Scott Linebrink; Paul Lo Duca; Kyle Lohse; Rodrigo Lopez; Mike Lowell; Damaso Marte; Mike Matheny; Luis Matos; Jason Michaels; Wade Miller; Eric Milton; Chad Moeller; Dustan Mohr; Jose Molina; Mike Myers; Joe Nathan; Orlando Palmeiro; Corey Patterson; Josh Paul; Odalis Perez; Joel Pineiro; Jorge Posada; Chris Reitsma Ricardo Rincon Luis Rivas Mariano Rivera
Kenny Rogers Aaron Rowand; Glendon Rusch; Olmedo Saenz; Curt Schilling; Carlos Silva; John Smoltz; Ichiro Suzuki; Julian Tavarez; Mike Timlin; Javier Valentin; Tim Wakefield; Vernon Wells; Jake Westbrook; Bob Wickman;
Brad Wilkerson; Kerry Wood; Jaret Wright; Michael Young; Carlos Zambrano;
Victor Zambrano

Obviously, many will resign before becoming eligible but even at that, the available talent will more plentiful and include more top players than the current pool.

i figured houston would get lee. they didn't really have a choice.

if burrell is healthy right now he has some serious value, if not he'll be our opening day left fielder. i will never understand why his health hasn't been a bigger part of the offseason story here. why hasn't anyone asked what he and gillick spoke about recently or got pat on the phone to find out his surgery status? pat is now a "poor mans carlos lee" and for a team like anaheim or baltimore that can't look too bad.

Tim: If Burrell isn't the opening day leftfielder, who is? Are you suggesting a starting OF of Victorino-Rowand-Conine?

i probably would cancel my season tickets if that was the outfield. i'd be ok with victorino, rowand, dellucci though if burrell brought a quality arm (not rodrigo lopez). i think a quality corner outfielder could be traded for without too much of a problem, especially the right side of a dellucci platoon.

I agree that Abreu played with a different level of intensity after he got traded to the Yanks. Just more aggressive in general.

I am not frustrated with trading Abreu but Gillick's seeming lack of any kind of coherent strategy besides undueing Ed Wade's long-term contracts. If this team had improved by 5 games as Gillick highlighted last offseason, they would have made the playoffs. They didn't and in large part it was due to Gillick's crappy offseason moves last year.

Still willing to take a wait and see but I have had little reason for optitism so far. Helms will upgrade 3B but there is just no way this team has really improved. I just don't see how this team improves over their 85 wins last season.

So voice of reason - are you saying we should be disappointed YET again this year as the Phillies miss out on the wild card again and hope to sign Adam Dunn, Andruw Jones, or Torii Hunter? Call me crazy, but that list looks like a bunch of type-B free agents who should probably be type-C's. On the plus side, they won't cost the Phils a draft pick if they sign them, but on the downside they're dreadful players.

One name that hasn't been kicked around is Jay Payton. He's solid defensively and would be an instant upgrade over Jeff Conine. Out of all the OF's left on the market, he's one of the best.

And what about trying to swing a trade to the outfield-anemic Mariners for Adrian Beltre? I wouldn't mind packaging Michael Bourn and maybe JA Happ for Adrian Beltre, sticking Beltre at third and moving Helms into the OF. If you think about it, Helms already seems to be a team player when it comes to the Phils. He declined a higher offer from the Yanks to sign with Philly.

That is, of course, assuming Pat "The Bat" Burrell is traded. His contract is looking like pocket change in this market, and the Phils could exploit that to their advantage and pry a major-league-ready talent from another team in exchange, as well as a mid-level prospect.


"His contract is looking like pocket change in this market."

Two weeks ago, who possibly would have agreed with that?

Okay, so the Astros signed Lee. Now we find out if Gillick has yet another backup plan, or if Burrell's indeed our (whipping) boy in '07.

With the kind of numbers being handed out to people like Carlos Lee, the Phillies are insane, repeat, completely bonkers, that is to say, absolutely freaking flipped-out nuthouse batsh*t crazies if they do not use that money saved on Abreu to sign Utley and Howard to extensions.

RSB: Howard doesn't become a free agent for four more years. Both Howard and Utley will cash in when they go to arbitration. It's not an issue you need to worry about now. Worry about pitching. They're not going anywhere, and I don't believe the Phillies will try to lowball them when they are due for payraises.

Howard deserves a xmas bonus.

Just not from the Jelly-of-the-Month club.

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EST. 2005

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