Part of CSNPhilly.com


« In progress: Utley's blast puts Phils on board | Main | Skies clear; Moyer makes home debut in Game 1 »

Saturday, September 02, 2006

Comments

Good to see Conine start. I wanna see him bat a few times. Jose K at 3B. At least his average is better than Nuni. Hows his defense?

I feel so disgusted right now. What disgusts me most is that Phillies fans are still not blaming the #1 culprit...Charlie Manuel. I've said it before, I'll say it again, and keep on saying it until people finally realize the man is an idiot!

You know what, I'm not sure what to be more pissed off about right now. Idiots who defend every dumbass move Manuel makes or at Manuel for making those stupid moves. It absolutely amazes me that people think there wasn't other options to use besides Rhodes. Rhodes sucks! Castro may indeed be unproven, but let him have a shot, he couldn't do any worse. I hate stupid people!

Brito pitcher. Brita pitcher.

What happened to Mathieson? Why was he taken out?

DG, you need to calm down. Tell me what you would've done in the ninth inning that makes any more sense. Send a 21-year old Rule 5 rookie in with zero closing experience? Aaron Fultz? If you want to hang it someone, hang it on Rhodes. Manuel did *not* have a great wealth of options in that situation. It's not just as simple as "Rhodes sucks". Prior to the last two games, he'd been getting the job done in Gordon's absence, including a few saves. I'm tired of you wanting to make an issue out of Manuel's strategy. Any, I repeat *any* major league manager makes that exact same decision with the personnel at hand. If you still disagree, fine - you can be pissed off all you want, but understand that this does not make anyone who feels differently, Manuel included, a "dumbass" or "stupid".

The rain isn't only washing Labor Day picnics out this weekend, it has seemed to taken the Phils playoffs hopes with it as well. Since some of you are unwilling to blame Manuel, maybe you'll blame the rain. Hell Milli Vanilli did.

DQ, not DG. Whatever.

Mathieson's groin maybe? 6 pitches, incredible. Brito 10.24 ERA. This is going to be a long night...

RSB- to answer your question about that "Rule 5 rookie"...yes, I'd march him right out to the mound and see how'd he fair, because Rhodes has "sucked"! I'm not apologizing or calming down. I am so flustered right now with people still not seeing the error of Manuel's ways. Manule uses "conventional wisdom" way too often, and therefore allows games to slip away. I blame Rhodes too, but he didn't put himself on the mound now did he?

I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong and/or hear others opinions, but this is different. I know I'm right about Manuel deserving blame. If you can't see that, than there is something wrong with you!

Let me see them walk Howard here...

I don't mean to be a prick when I say this, DQ. But it's awfully hard to take you seriously with an attitude like that.

I like DQ's rants and your calmness RSB but Mathieson was given another chance today with a 7+ ERA. Brito came in with a now 9+ ERA. I wanna see rule 5 Castro get a go with a 0.49 ERA after 18 innings. He has earnt a look in considering everyone else has had alot of work and need a rest.

I would've kept Madson in or used Castro. Rhodes hasn't been good at all recently. However, that was only the second home run he's given up all year so it's not as if it was to be expected. Surprisingly, Brito seems to be doing alright so far..

I imagine Brito's start has something to do with the good game he pitched against the Braves last September.

I just got back home and logged on. Has an explanation been given for Mathieson being pulled?

Not that I've heard. Lieby can still hit them hangers, can't he? It's good to see the Phils come out swinging the bats after two tough losses.

RSB wrote:

"I imagine Brito's start has something to do with the good game he pitched against the Braves last September."

Was this said jokingly ? Do you actually think the Phils made a pitching decision based on a single start 11 months ago in a previous season ? Mathieson got unexpectedly hurt and Brito was one of the few options.

Bloodstrpes makes a good point about Mathieson and Brito being used in key games down the stretch and Castro still being relegated to mop-up duty. I am in the minority that I think Rhodes was the correct move in game 1. Sometimes these things don't work out. But I do agree that Castro is being under utilized.

You bet. We'll need an 8 run lead to save it.

:]

I missed the top of the first and didn't realize Mathieson actually made six pitches before leaving. So I apologize for that false assumption.

Scott Mathieson left the game due to an injured elbow.

Randall Simon's looking like a nice pickup so far...

Yep, and Jose K is 3 for 3. Conine scores. The bases were loaded with new trades!

Should Jose be a starter at 3B?

I think Hernandez is a lesser defensive option than Nunez, but I wouldn't mind seeing in there against lefties.

Hopefully, this game is called and official before the Braves have a chance to pull it back into a save situation.

Yeah, we're gonna need these 9+ runs. A blowout. Should see Fabio soon for some shutout innings.

Nothing like a big win to shut us up!

Phillies have put those bad losses behind them in a big way, great to see. Conine and Hernandez swinging hot bats, even Brito contributes with a clutch outing. Thank god for doubleheaders.

I dont' care if Castro is a Rule 12 rookie, he should be pitching in real situations.

I agree.

Look what happens. Take him out and they get a hit.

Wouldn't it be cool if pitchers had to wear their ERAs on the backs of their uniform? Rick White just looks like he should have a '6.' next to that 00 on his back.

Nice to see the Phils come back in Game 2 after blowing Game 1. Manuel should have kept Madson in the 9th inning of Game 1. It's not like Madson is ineffective against left-handed batters. His change-up fools both lefties and righties. Even with the rain out yesterday, Rhodes has pitched in the last 4 games. That is entirely too much for someone his age and who, for the most part, has been a disappointment this season. That being said, I too don't care for Manuel's decision making, or lack there of, but you cannot be serious about bringing in Castro to that situation. Castro has earned the right to pitch in games were the Phils are up 7-4 or 6-2, sometimes in a set-up role, but not in closing situations.

I agree completely jon.

now they gotta win both tomorrow. It's possible, maybe not probable though.

I must say I got a huge laugh out of some of the posts today. The same posters who were so happy that Lidle & Cormier were being dumped are now whining and crying about Charlie's moves because he's short a reliable lefthanded reliever and could use another starter. It's no wonder professional baseball people have so little respect for fans' opinions.

For those people who agree with continually trotting Rhodes out there in a tight situation because he's almost 40 yrs old and has been there before, you are just as ignorant as the bonehead manager. You feed into these stupid old baseball myths that a guy who has never done before can't do it. I'd rather go with the unknown quantity like Castro who has been pretty much lights out, than Rhodes who we know has been choking most of this season. Who cares if he doesn't have the experience, let's see what this guy can do when it matters. Experience is overrated. Talent wins out, and clearly Castro has more talent than Rhodes at this point.

Although I think Manuel and the Phils have done a good job cobbling together what they have in the bullpen, I don't like the constant use of Rhodes in close games. It's long past the point where Manuel and his staff should have identified this.

Pretend you had no prior knowledge of Arthur Rhodes, and that at one time, he used to save or setup games. Forget all that, and forget anything you know about the other pitchers. Based on what you've seen this season, would Rhodes be used in the ninth this late in the season instead of someone else? No way.

Here's what I found interesting from the games today:

ERAs of relief pitchers used in Game 1, a tight 3-2 game in the ninth: 5.54, 5.19 (It's worth pointing out that as a reliever, Madson's ERA is about 2.90).

ERAs of relief pitchers used in Game 2, a blowout 11-3 game in the fifth: 3.19, 0.49, 3.97

Specifics, Game 1: Madson was brought in to face a right-handed hitter and gave up a tough infield hit. Rhodes brought in to face left-hander LaRoche and grooves a pitch middle-in for a two-run homer. Result: One run charged to each pitcher for a combined one inning of work.

Specifics, Game 2: If you count Brito as a starter, Geary was the first reliever in the 5th. He gave up 1 hit in two innings, a single to LH hitter LaRoche. Then it was Fabio Castro's turn. He faces six hitters, five right-handed, and sits them down in order, including three strikeouts. Last, Rick White gives up three singles and a run, but ends game with two ground balls, including a game-ending double play. Result: One run charged to White for combined four innings of relief.

Granted, there was very, very little pressure on the guys in game two. All the starters were out by the end. But I think this should demonstrate that the Phillies have other options, and that the answer really is as simple as not pitching Rhodes late in a close game, specifically here at home, where his ERA is now pushing 8.00.

I wouldn't care if they trotted him out there if he was effective. Age would not mean anything to me if you were getting the job done. He's not. He's hasn't been for most of the season. Do you really want your playoff hopes hinging on Rhodes based on what he has done, or should I say hasn't done??

Jon: Actually if you looked at Rhodes past playoff performances, particularly against the Yankees, he'd be the LAST person you'd want out there.

Yeah, Clout. I am surprised Rhodes has made it this far with the team this season. I thought for sure they would have cut or traded him at some point, but I guess you can never have enough left-handed relievers. Put Rhodes in Fabio's role...

Is it time to announce that Madson will be the closer until Gordon returns? Then maybe we could get the guys in the pen back into some type of roles, like Rhodes becoming a left-handed (one-batter) specialist or mop-up man (if he needs to pitch to more than one batter)?

Anyway, it was nice to see Chase crushing the ball with authority during these games. Looks like the day off really helped him. He looked like is usual self today. It was also nice to see Simon contribute with two pinch hits.

Clout: yes, but I'm certain the professionals have no end of respect for your irreproachable opinions. At least Ed Wade might have, anyway, you two seem to think alike.

Rhodes had been getting the job done in every game since Gordon went down, up until the last two. If you want to argue that Geary, Castro, White, or even Madson would have been better options, the opposite can be just as effectively argued. Any of these pitchers could just as have easily been susceptible to a blown save there. There was no one clearly better option, even acknowledging how lousy Rhodes is.

RSB: You've backed yourself into a corner so deep on this one, it's fun to see you squirm.

RSB- normally I agree with you but to say "Rhodes had been getting the job done in every game since Gordon went down, up until the last two" is nuts. How many times has been called on besides these last 2? Maybe 5 games? I can only think of one time since Gordon's been down that he looked good, when he Kd the side against the Cubs or Nats (I don't remember which). Maybe he skirted by the other times, and it's caught up with him the last 2. He still throws hard, but he has no idea where it's going.

RSB, would you have pitched Rhodes there after pitching in three straight against Washington, then having a day off due to the rain, and then coming right back into the fire when Madson started the inning? I think it was more frustrating due to Madson starting the inning. I personally would have rather rolled with Madson, even more so with a runner on and Rhodes WHIP of nearly 2.14 and an ERA of 7.23 at Ctizen's Bank Park this season.

doctor: RSB's position is impossible to defend. Rhodes statistics, partuclarly his BB/K ratio, speak louder than anything RSB can say. He feels obligated to defend bonehead moves like this since he's on record as saying the Phillies are a better team without Lidle, Cormier, Abreu etc.

RSB is right about that.

I just saw the Muts had to help Carlos Beltran off the field. I don't know how bad it is. The commentators had nothing to report on it yet.

Here is a blurb from ESPN on it:

Carlos Beltran injured his knee when he crashed into the left field wall when making a catch on a long fly by Lance Berkman in the ninth inning. He made the throw and then went down to the ground. After being tended to by the trainers for a few minutes, Beltran walked off gingerly with help.

you've got 4 games in two days, I would've resigned myself to the fact that you're gonna have to use more than one closer over the course of the weekend anyways. Even if Gordon was around, you'd still have to realize that Rhodes would probably have to come in to save a game somewhere.

That given, and given that in Gordon's absence , the hierarchy is now Rhodes-Madson, it makes no sense to use both in the same game, regardless of situation or match-ups. Had it been Geary, or White instead of Madson, at least the move wouldve been logical pre-Rhodeshowbreakdown.

"hard to take me serious"...I find it hard to take you serious when you can't see obvious mistakes in Manuel's moves. I'm standing firm on my statements to call Manuel and idiot and people that defended his choosing of Rhodes to pitch the 9th idiots. Doesn't mean you're an idiot overall, just in this case. But if you don't want to take my comments serious, although I only speak the truth than fine...be blind!

DQ, I don't care how you take me. My comment isn't based on your opinion, it's the way you conduct yourself on here. You have more in common with Clout than you think.

Clout, I'm not squirming over this any more than Charlie Manuel is. I happen to agree with him that it was the best move out of a lot of poor options to make at the time. Others may see it diffently, and that is acceptable. But such a move is "indefensible" only by your own narrow standards. You operate under the premise that *only* your opinion can be the right one, which is just a deplorable way to engage in discourse.

You want to make this some kind of ridiculous, contrarian rivalry instead of presenting yourself objectively. There can only be a fundamental disagreement when one party refuses to sustain an honest, open intellect. That would be you, sir.

Uncle "Elmer" Charlie continues to baffle me. Rhodes continues to be overused. Castro/Geary/keeping Madson in or even JOSE MESA circa 2004 are better choices than Rhodes. I'm so sick of managers using pitch counts & lefty vs lefty situational desisions. Lieber had what 94 pitches? We have 2 doubleheaders-keep him in.
Checking Rhodes stats from 2003-2005. Lefties hitting.284 against him
righties hitting .229.
Why does Charlie continue to put him against lefties. He can't locate his fasball & has an ineffectice slider.
This year Lefties hitting .288 Righties .257.
The past 2 games will come back to haunt the Phills. I blame Charlie.

Frank - Lieber was hit hard the last 2 innings he pitched. He should've gone to the bullpen and did. That's where he started making bad decisions.

You have to wonder why Uncle Charlie has so much confidence in Rhodes. Still, Rhodes is a veteran pitcher who knows that he can't give up a HR to LaRoche.

Sad thing is this game cost Lieber a win. Lieber has been a real disappointment up until the past month. Finally, earning some of that $7.5 million dollars. If the Phils do make the wildcard, Lieber is going to be a huge reason why.

Hey will,
Fair point. Just frustrated w/ Manuel. Rhodes is old & has been used the past 4 games. He needs a break after 2 starts. Check Castro's stat's he can pitch. These old school managers insist on going w/ vets like Rhodes. Think outside the box & go w/ the hot hand. Do you think the Marlins w/ a 15 mil payroll are worrying about pitching young kids w/ no experience? They are only a 1.5 games behind us.
On another note-Atlanta made a great aquisition in Daryle Ward from Washington. He can hit. I wish we picked him up. He cost us a game against washington a few weeks ago.

RSB- I'll agree I was acting very hot-headed last night, and you compared me to Clout...as which I was being. Fair assessment on your part. However, that's about it that was correct. To still not be able to see that Manuel had better options than Rhodes leads me to believe that you think like Manuel. Why not give Fabio Castro a chance? Has he done something wrong over the course of his Philly stay? Oh wait, he's a Rule 5 pick and they can only be used sparingly...my bad, I though he might just be able to pitch and get outs. I've been very open lately to people's comments on this board, but I can NOT tolerate someone being unable to see the error of Manuel's ways. This is more than "thinking outside the box" or "going with the hot hand"...it's about not doing what doesn't work again and again, and instead problem solving and trying a new solution.

OH Frank I agree with everything you said just fine. Except the Fish thing. They're playing with house money right now. If they lost the rest of the season, they'd still be considered a success. There's no pressure on them at all.

RSB: How does my pointing out your lack of logic and narrow-mindedness equal "You operate under the premise that *only* your opinion can be the right one"? I've never said that. There are dozens of opinions on here.
Your problem is you've painted yourself into a corner. You have said that the Phils are better off without Abreu, Lidle, Cormier etc. and that their leaving has caused the winning streak. Thus you cannot ever say that the Phils could've used one of them. Which means you feel obligated to defend Charlie's moves.
This narrow-mindedness has even caused you to make the bizarre statement that the Phils play since July 26 (when the streak began) "can't be a winning streak since it's lasted more than a month." Well, it can only be two things: A winning streak or the way the team is going to play over a full season. Do you think this team will play .632 ball over a full season?
See what I mean about the things you say?

I've been busy the last few days. It's good to see that Clout, DQ and RSB are keeping things lively.

Maybe, Gillick can pick up a closer somewhere. Don't we have closers in AAA?

Flash may be back today, but then again, I've heard that several times before.

No, of course I don't see what you mean, since you color your assertions so one-sidedly. Why does lamenting the Phillies' loss in Game 1 translate into having to admit the Phillies could have used Abreu or Lidle? How does that follow? And Cormier? You want me to go crying that the Phillies didn't have Rheal freakin' Cormier available in the ninth inning yesterday? This means that I've "talked myself into a corner" and makes me obligated to defend Manuel? What I lament is that Gordon got hurt and couldn't be out there in the ninth. Manuel wouldn't have had any better of an option had his GM not traded five players in July. Don't talk to me about logic, because there's sure as hell not much to your argument here.

As far as my statement about the "winning streak": it's not a winning steak. It's a 17-10 month of August. You want to call it pure fluke and coincidence, and I'm saying no, it isn't. Do I think the team can continue to play at that level this month? I do. Have I already said that there were other factors which have obviously contributed to their better record since the trades? I have, but you continue to selectively ignore that and just keep focusing on the one point I make which you don't agree with.

And look at the way you pose this question: "How does my pointing out your lack of logic and narrow-mindedness equal 'You operate under the premise that *only* your opinion can be the right one'? Your language speaks for itself, even as you're trying to fend against the question I've asked. Disagreement on one side does NOT equal 'lack of logic' and 'narrow-mindedness' on the other. You need to learn to respect people who don't think exactly like you. Understand it is never exception to your own thinking that I take, it is always exception to your intolerance, arrogance, and self-righteousness. No matter what you think of my opinions, there is no excuse for this kind of disrespect. I'm willing to meet anyone halfway as long as they can conduct thelselves with a sense of fairness and humility.

clout, I've (silently) disagreed with you in the past, but I applaud your clear thinking in this case. I'm not sure where this "Rhodes is our only option" nonsense came from, but it's lunacy to place our least reliable reliever in the closer position! Rhodes' "experience" isn't exactly hot, either: 26 saves over 15 complete seasons doesn't wow me. He's "overused" but has given us a mere 43.1 innings in 52 games, another statistic indicative of weak pitching.

I won't pine over the likes of Cormier, either; this mess can be fixed from within. Rhodes clearly needs to be delegated to Castro's mop-up duties. If I had to use the guy in a tight game, I'd make sure to do it in the 6th-7th inning, giving my players a chance to answer the runs he'll surrender. Castro's shown enough to become the new Madson: 2+ innings in the 6-8 range. Madson's shown enough for a shot as interim closer. There, problem solved and I haven't even brought Fultz, Geary, or White into this discussion.

For this weekend's madness, I'd try to give Geary a rest so he could alternate with Madson in the closer role.

I would see the Phillies recent hot play is a fluke. They played since the All-Star break as if they had the best offense in not just the national league, but in all of baseball; we all know that isn't really the case. They have great production at a few positions and average to below-average production at the others. Sooner or later we should revert to playing .520 ball or so. However, we do have a very soft schedule and the other teams in the race are pretty flawed as well, so there's every reason to be optimistic.

RSB: I won't belabor this as your post completely ignores the points I made in my post while distorting what you said in your earlier posts. Suffice to say there are many posters here I've disagreed with, but you are the only one I can honestly call disingenuous and narrow minded.

Tray: I agree, although I wouldn't call their recent play a fluke. It is simply a hot streak, which every team goes through during a season. RSB thinks this is a .632 team. We'll find out who's right.

"you are the only one I can honestly call disingenuous and narrow minded."

I'm not going to win with you, clearly. No matter what I say, you fling insults at me. You're a very small and weak person.

RSB: LOL, I must say I got a big laugh out of this: "No matter what I say, you fling insults at me. You're a very small and weak person."

Yep, no hypocrisy there!

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories

HardballTalk

Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel

CSG