Time to show Dallas the door

Present-day manager Charlie Manuel got into it with glory day manager and present-day advisor Dallas Green before yesterday's game, according to a report by Jim Salisbury in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

According to the story, Manuel has been seething ever since Green publicly criticized him on radio several weeks ago. Manuel confronted Green near the dugout before the start of the Phillies game against the Mets. According to Salisbury, the confrontation lasted 60 seconds, with Manuel doing most of the talking and finger pointing.

Sources told Salisbury that Green was "slapped on the wrist" for criticizing Manuel and was told to stay away from the field, clubhouse and dugout. He was reportedly showing a group of friends around the field.

The 72-year-old manager of the 1980 World Championship team was enshrined Wall of Fame last week, leading to speculation he would retire or not be retained as advisor next year. Always outspoken, Green last made headlines by criticizing since-departed third baseman Scott Rolen.

Beerleaguer take
The Phillies began the process of cutting ties with the old regime by firing Larry Bowa, and they’re long overdue to wave goodbye to Dinosaur Dallas. Tom Goodman of Swing and a Miss has long championed this cause. This morning, Goodman writes:

Once or twice a season, Green can be counted on to open his big mouth and publicly ridicule some player ... Green (pictured right with mouth open) was enshrined for something he accomplished 26 years ago this October. There are many, including several of his former ballplayers, who have publicly stated that the 1980 team won the World Series despite or to spite him. Regardless of how one views that magical season of long ago, Green has done nothing since to endear him to fans or players alike ... Since his return as a senior advisor Green has remained in the background for the most part save the occasional sally forth to utter some public ridicule. Once again, Mr. Montgomery, the debt to Mr. Green has been paid in full. Consider the enshrinement your final payment and do the right thing. Tell the Big Mouth goodbye. By the way, does the wall plaque show him with his mouth open?

It’s up to the Phillies decision-makers to decide whether they’re truly serious about moving forward and not looking back. Pat Gillick’s job is hard enough without a so-called advisor throwing his field manager under the bus. I struggle to grasp how a disruptive former manager, whose frame of reference lies 26 years in the past, can offer fresh advice for a GM whose Mariners team set an AL record with 116 wins just five years ago.

It’s time for Mr. Green to join many of the legends enshrined on that wall: Present only in memory; absent in physical and audible form.

Comments

[Mike H.]

I often wonder if his role in the last few years is to run interference for the management group. Joe Torre once speculated that he's a loudmouth because he used to get shelled so much as a pitcher in the 60s.

[clout]

Oh! Mike H. does have an opinion!

[Mike H.]

Clout, my man, I think we have found agreement on an issue! He has to go.

[voice of reason]

Just read the article - and found nothing surprising in itat all!

Green may be glorified as the manager of the '80 team, but the Scott Rolen criticism is the thing I'll remember Dallas for the most. The Phils had the 3rd baseman of the future and ran him out of town.

I remember sitting at field level along 3rd base at the Vet and watching Rolen turn the corner on an inside-the-park homer. He looked like a freight train ready to run through a brick wall. I used to love to watch him play the game.

To make matters worse, soon afterward, Wade overpaid for a long-term Abreu contract to disprove a fan base critical of the team's failure to build a winner. We've been paying for Wade's poor management ever since.

A Dallas Green retirement is long overdue.

[GPC]

Aside from Green's shortcomings, his perspectives on Manuel's performance are valid. Manuel is arguably the worst manager in professional baseball. Both he and Dallas need to go away forever.

[Mike H.]

GPC,

All of professional baseball? The minors and independent leagues? Who do you think is the best manager in baseball?

[voice of reason]

Has anyone seen the transcripts of the radio show or know exactly what Green's comments about Cholly were?

[That Dude]

I hate to disagree, but Green's issues were 100% valid in dealing with both Rolen and Elmer. And remember, all he said "about Rolen" was that "the middle of the lineup was killing us." If that's enough to sour a guy on the organization, good riddance.

[Lake Fred]

I remember Dallas Green as a pitcher. He was mediocre to poor. I agree with Jason. Show him the door.

[That Dude]

Show elmer the door, not Dallas. He isnt wrong. And remember, referring to ROlen, all Green said was "the middle of the lineup is killing us", OMG such harsh words (sarcasm mode off). Rolen's real problem is that we wanted him to be THE MAN, but he would rather be a second banana. Thats why he loves ST Louis, no pressure since it's on PUjols and Edmons as THE MEN.

[J. Weitzel]

I should have added this somewhere to put this in context.

The gist of the Dallas Green - Howard Eskin interview was that the team was underachieving, and that the manager can't get the most out of players by being their friend. This was back around the time when Gillick endorsed Manuel for the remainder of the season, but Green's name had started circulating as a possible replacement.

[voice of reason]

Green also called Rolen only a 'so-so' player and lacked the "personality" to be a great player. All after winning ROY and two Gold Gloves while busting his butt EVERY day.
If Dallas had a problem with Rolen and/or Manuel he should have confronted them personally instead of using the media to get his point across.

[joe]

Hrm... It seems that Dallas is a "manage by pissing them off" type of a guy...

it works... anger is a powerful emotion, and sometimes you can channel it into something productive.

[Drama Queen]

Send Dallas to Dallas with the likes of T.O.

[Lake Fred]

In my lunchtime internet wanderings, I found an interesting Dallas Green stat. In 1961 he was tied for 17th for most game appearances with 42, the same number as the great Sandy Koufax. Leading the league was Phillie Jack Baldschun with 65 appearances. Dallas had a 2-4 record.

The Phils finished last that year, winning 47 and losing 107, 46 games back. On July 23rd, they started a five game losing streak, winning a game on July 28th. They then lost 23 games in a row (The ML record)until they won on August 20th. So for that period they were 1 and 28! And we thought Uncle Charlie was bad. Gene Mauch was the Manager in 1961.

[Jon]

It's time for Green to walk away and at the end of the season, just as it is time to move on from Manuel come the completion of the 2006 campaign.

I was not happy with Green's public blasting of Scott Rolen. He did not have to go to the media with that story. I mean, who did Rolen have around him? Travis Lee? Bobby Abreu? Come on. That is weak to trash your star player when those two are suppposed to have his back (offensively speaking).

Anyway, looking past Rolen, I feel that Green is correct when it comes to Manuel. Charlie is a feeble manager. He cannot manage a pitching staff. He won't give someone like a Ruiz a shot. Plus, earlier in the year, it took everything to line up right with the stars for him to give our bench players some playing time. Those are just three of the many gripes that I could bring forward with regard to Manuel. It would be in the organization's best interest to remove him from being the manager come the end of the season.

I would like to see some smart intense guy come in and totally mesh with the smart intense players we have on this team. I want a fiery guy who manages with the passion of Chase Utley scoring from second on a ground out! Will it happen? Time will tell.

[That Dude]

stop defending Scott Rolen who btw is a good player who DOES LACK the personality to be THE MAN. And when I say he is a good player I would define him as an EXCELLENT third baseman and an average hitter.

[Lake Fred]

I agree 100% with Jon's comments, especially when he writes "I want a fiery guy who manages with the passion of Chase Utley scoring from second on a ground out!"

[ae]

not a big fan of Rolen (yeah, sour grapes), but the only team he's an "average hitter" on is the Yankees. maybe.

his career adjusted OPS+ is 130. from 1997 to 2004, he posted an adjusted OPS+ over 120 every single season, including the 7th best OPS in the league in 2004. he has the 24th highest career OPS of all active players (better than Palmeiro, Sosa and Tim Salmon to name a few, and less than one point behind David Ortiz).

[RickSchuBlues]

It's impossible for anyone to say what kind of worth Green actually holds in his role as "advisor". This much, however, is perfectly clear: the next time he puts his mouth near a microphone, he ought to be canned. This is just the latest in a long line of too-frank comments just since he re-upped with the Phils' organization, the most damaging of which was his "so-so" comment on Rolen. He comes off as an arrogant, back-stabbing loudmouth who thinks he's above accountability.

Dude, I know you're not going to change your mind on Rolen, and whatever - I don't want to get into anything with you. But it was Bowa who said the middle of the lineup was "killing" them. Green's words added fuel to the fire. It was wrong of both of them. Bowa tried so hard to praise Rolen at every opportunity thereafter, but it was too late. And my stance on him is opposite of yours. Rolen, while maybe not a leader, played as hard as anyone I've seen and more talent than anyone who's worn a Phillies uniform since Mike Schmidt. He's certainly more than an average hitter. He may never have been "the man" like Utley, but his obvious drive was presence enough. There's no way you could lump in with complacent players like Lieberthal, Abreu, Burrell. He should have been a franchise player. The Phillies blew it with him, and it's something forever worth lamenting. Especially given the state of the third-base situation since he left.

One more thing I wanted to comment on, concerning Conlin's column about the need for right-handed reinforcement for Howard: as he mentions, the FA possibilities for a right-handed outfielder are slim, but from what I read, the trade market might have plenty to offer. Torii Hunter and Vernon Wells are two guys who look like they're going to be on the block in the off-season. I would like to see the Phillies make a run at one of them.

[That Dude]

remember he has serious line up (as well as accountability) protection in St Louis. In Phila yes he had Travis Lee, but dont scoff at Bobby Abreu batting in front or behind him then. If you go to Baseball-reference you will see that from 96-01 the profile of an above average hitter. In that time he never ranked in the top 10 for Slug or OPS. He was 6th in runs ONCE and struck out the 5th and 6th highest twice. According to BR, similar hitters to Rolen were/are

Kevin Mitchell, Brian Giles, Cliff Floyd, Danny Tartabul, Jeff Heath and hey Bobby Abreu.

When he was on the Phillies he was an abovie avg hitter, phantastic defender and a guy with no mental toughness and an unusually thin skin.

[That Dude]

oh yeah he batted 059 in the WS. He is so NOT money he doesn;t even know it.

[Jon]

Not everyone is going to have the fire like a Chase Utley (who by the way is THE MAN), but Rolen was about as productive both offensively and defensively as you could get at the hot corner when he was here. He was also one of the best at going from first to third, or second to home that you will find. You are free to rip him, just as Green, however I don't see it being that valid when the other hitters in the middle of the line up weren't that clutch (ex. Lee and Abreu, hell even Lieberthal was around a number six hitter when Rolen was here).

Also, That Dude, Rolen is an above average hitter. How many third basemen can consistently put up 30 HR and 100+ RBIs year in and year out when they are healthy? Not to mention his almost yearly winning of a Gold Glove? Our third basemen since he has been gone would be lucky to match half that production.

[Mike H.]

RSB - I'm buying what you're saying about Wells or Hunter, especially with Wells. Class act, above average defense, would really love hitting in CBP, and get a little more exposure than now. It was not an accident that I put class act first. He'd do very well on an Utley-led team.

[Jon]

While I would absolutely love to get Wells, the question is, what would you have to give up to get him? And do the Phils have what it takes to get a deal like that done? I'm not sure at this point.

[ae]

I really like Wells, too...but there's no way we're affording him after this season. Pat, please prove me wrong, but I don't see it. (besides, what would you do with Rowand then? trade him, yeah, but to whom, after this miserable season?)

[Tony]

Rolen was a crybaby.

Just so everyone knows:
I am THE MAN.

[clout]

Baseball is a sport that punishes honesty, which is why guys like Larry Bowa and Dallas Green are so rare. Dishonesty and hype about the lineup, about the farm system, about the team's chances is rewarded (until the fans figure out they've been conned again and then you just flip the GM and manager and start the process over the again.) That said, you can't have a subordinate contradicting the boss. If Gillick says Cholly is a great manager, Dallas should say so too, or if he can't lie, then just keep his trap shut.
P.S. Yes Rolen was the 2nd best thirdbaseman in Phillies history, but he hated Philadelphia. Didn't like the fans, didn't like city, didn't like the pressure to be a clubhouse leader. I doubt he'd have stayed regardless of what Green said about "the middle of the lineup." He dreamed of going back to the Midwest and his dream came true.

[RickSchuBlues]

I only mention this as even a remote possility because a) Gillick doesn't like long-term free agent deals; b) Wells was reportedly a target of Gillick's wheh he was offering Abreu around last winter; c) I think it's clear Pat Burrell doesn't belong with this club, right-handed or not. I don't know if they'd have interest in Hunter, but then again I can't see why not. Do they have what it takes to make this kind of move? I don't know, either. It might depend on how much interest there is from other teams, and how badly their present teams want to transfer their contracts. But those are just two names off the top of my head, anyhow. We'll see.

[RickSchuBlues]

I don't think Rolen had a problem with the city or the fans or anything until the spring of 2001, which was the first time he publicly and justifiably questioned the Phillies' commitment to winning. A couple of months into the season, the shouting match with Bowa turned the fans against him. At the time, Bowa had the Phils off to a hot start and he was more or less a sacred god in Philadelphia. He started getting booed for the first time, and then Green piled it on. So where Rolen had been seen as the franchise cornerstone from 1997 to 2000, suddenly he had soured on the organization and he preceived it had likewise soured on him. When people feel offended because they perceive he didn't like the city or its fans, I feel like that really wasn't the issue. There's no doubt he's happier in his native Midwest, but had the Phillies been a better organization, they would have kept him here. That's the bottom line.

[J. Weitzel]

Honesty is a matter of personal preference. I'm not saying this to disagree with you, but my preference is for managers and officials who keep the public focus on the field and out of the clubhouse.

For example, Andy Reid offers up nothing during his press conference, and that doesn't bother me at all. Meanwhile, someone like Brian Billick is more public. Is any one approach right or wrong? Does public scrutiny make players more accountable and add to performance? Or does a tight-lipped coach or GM make the job more comfortable for players and eliminate outside static? I see no evidence either way. Billick won a Super Bowl, but then again, Bill Belichick won three, and he’s perhaps the most introverted head coach in the league.

In terms of Green, he needs to move on. His role as advisor is not to go on radio and point out the flaws of the team. Obviously, the team didn't think so, either, and reportedly slapped him on the wrist. In terms of what he said, yes, the team was making too many mistakes. Yes, Charlie Manuel’s one-on-one approach did not appear to have this team focused enough and ready to jump out of the gate. But going on radio and allowing the people you're hired to help hear this second-hand is hardly the right way to handle it.

[theragtopguy]

I will admit to unabashedly being a Bowa and Green supporter over the years. I met Green in FL a couple of years ago and he is very opinionated to say the least.

They will always be high on my list because they were on the ONLY NL team EVER to win a World Championship in Philly.

That having been said, I agree that Green should retire and move on. As the saying goes, if you aren't part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

Wells would be an interesting guy to pick up to bat behind Little Papi, but he is also very streaky.

[voice of reason]

Good point, RSB. The perception was that Rolen disliked Phila. and would get out at the first chance. I would have to disagee based on the following (relying on memory here):
(1) Rolen requested a clause that would void the contract if the team payroll decreased below the top third in the major leagues once CBP opened. Had the clause been included, Scott would have become a long-term Phillie. Got to believe many of the Rolen bashers are the same fans threatening to boycott the team if management reduces the current payroll significantly. (Talk about a double-standard!)
(2) Rolen had apparently requested negotiations be kept private, but after contract talks stalled, the team released details so that Scott Rolen, instead of team management, would be painted as the scapegoat. After that everything else snowballed with the Bowa & Green comments and Rolen quickly became a fan target.

I believe Rolen was more than willing to remain a Phillie but only wanted management to commit to a winning team.

[That Dude]

But Voice, he requested a clause that he knew the Phils (or any team for that matter) could never put in writing. Why did he ask? Becuase he knew we'd say no and it would position him as getting out of town without being the bad guy. He's is good (ok very good) player, but his makeup wasn't made for Philly, Green's comment notwithstanding. That's just the straight shit.

Let me ask youse one more thing....when Gillick says Cholly is doing a good job, do ANY of you believe him? Answer that hoenstly and think what we would say if Dallas said the same thing publicly...we would call his BS. ANd remember, he hardly "ripped" him, they were fairly mild comments that Elemr took offense too...oh eyah, and they were obviously true.

[Alby]

I'm with VoR and RSB on this one: Watching Rolen was worth the price of admission every night. "His makeup wasn't made for Philly..." Wha?? He was Bill Barber in spikes -- wouldn't say s*** if he had a mouthful of it, played his butt off, one of the most aggressive baserunners I ever saw. It was his misfortune to follow Schmidt, which set the offensive bar impossibly high. I always saw him as more a Brooks Robinson type -- great D, more than average offense. Once he hurt his back he's been susceptible to the inside fastball, but he still punishes off-speed pitch mistakes. To whoever thinks Rolen wasn't a clutch player because of his poor WS, take a look at Schmidt's stats from the 83 series. Do you think we should kick him out of the Hall of Fame for that?

[That Dude]

NO, but then again Schmidty already had a WS MVP on his mantle.

[That Dude]

NO, but then again Schmidty already had a WS MVP on his mantle.

[MDZ]

If it's time to show Dallas the door, then it's way past time to do the same for Manuel. Pinella in '07!

[John Salmon]

RSB: "There's no way you could lump {Rolen}in with complacent players like Lieberthal, Abreu, Burrell."

The total number of better RF's than Bobby Abreu in Phillies' team history is...zero. The total number of catchers better than Lieberthal is...also very possibly zero. Note that Lieberthal is the team leader in games caught as well. Daulton couldn't hold Mike's jockstrap defensively, and Lieby at his peak was nearly Dutch's equal as a hitter. And Pat's in the top tier of LF's as well. All of this is true despite the fact that you don't like these people.

RSB, your asinine obsession with "character", as you define it-as if you knew these guys personally-is a formula for even dumber personnel decisions than have been typical so far in The Gllick Era.

I take back the above if YOU DO know Burrell, Lierberthal etc. personally. Otherwise, you need to STFU.