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Sunday, August 27, 2006

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I just do not see much upside with the acquisition of Conine. Maybe he helps with some outfield depth but he is a defensive liability. This is the kind of second-rate move that Ed Wade used to make. If Conine wins more than a game for the Phils down the stretch, I will be surprised.

I set the same goal for Michael Tucker last season. If he wins one game, it's worth it ... and he did. The problem is, the Phils can't wipe their hands of Conine like they could with Tucker. I'm warming up to it because the post-season experience matters. I'll either love or hate this deal in October.

I'm sure part of this is trying to make sure the kids know the organization still believes in them.

Also, I think Rowand might pick up his own $3.5million option, considering his 2 trips to the DL and poor plate appearances this year.

The phils have defensive gloves off the bench already, this gives them an offensive choice off the bench.

i see many good things to this deal. he will help down the stretch and is much better than roberson or thurston. second, he will be valuable off the bench next year and is a great veteren player with much experience that will help a young club

i cant believe how most everyone is lukewarm -to- s******g all over this deal. In the previous post someone made light of my comment about "knowing how to win" meaning nnothing. If there has been one problem over the last 3 years its how the Phils aholes get tight in well, tight siutations. Here is a guy who i ss till valuable who doesnt get phased by these things. So it costs 2mill, in the immortal words of Derrick Coleman, whoopdie damn do. It's about time we stopped thinking like KC and started thinking like NY.

when you think like NY but have a revenue source of less than 1/3 of their's..... you're gonna end up cutting payroll at some point.

True, but that doesnt mean you dont spend 2mill in the drive to the playoffs.

Agree with That Dude wholeheartedly. If the Braves had made this deal two years ago, ppl would talk about how Schuerholz was a genius. Basically, by getting Moyer and Conine, I have a feeling the Phillies came away with the two players that other teams were looking to acquire.

Part of me thinks this is a move they had to make. The Phils are now down only one game in the Wild Card, and will face zero teams over .500 after tomorrow. The Wild Card is there for the taking.

If Conine wins them one game, I'll also be pleased. And if that win gets them into the playoffs, that will earn the team more than the $1.5 million we'd owe him next year.

It's a decent risk/reward calculus if you believe, as I do, that he was the best option available for what he'll be called upon to do (platoon with DD, sub for Burrell 1-2x a week, PH against tough lefties).

1. This NOT a move that Ed Wade would do.

2. This IS the kind of move that the Braves or Yankees do.

3. Jeff Conine is a pressure cooker type of player, something without Rowand we won't have (a veteran with WORLD SERIES experience). In 2003, he hit .333 against the Yankees. He hit .367 over that entire post season.

4. If we've done nothing, we've taken a NOTORIOUS PHILLIES killer off the streets. This 40 YEAR OLD player hit .545 against the Phillies this year. OVER the last 3 years something like .343 against the Phillies. And that probably doesn't tell you all the damage he has done against us.

Comparing this deal to Michael Tucker is silly and uninformed. This is a proven MAJOR LEAGUER. Not like the UNPROVEN minor leaguers that we received after unloading 6 or 7 major leaguers over the break.

Jeff Conine is a WINNER. This is NOT about starting in the outfield next year. NOR is it about the $2 million vested for next year (WHICH is NOT a LONG TERM DEAL?????). Besides, the Phillies can WELL afford with that bit, considering the Orioles sent $500K along with us for the deal.

But it's okay, that you are aren't aware of what this kind of deal means? Since we haven't seen this kind of move in 25 years or so. So, I'll let it go.

Is no one remembering how much this guy has killed us the past few years? I think this is a move like the maneuverings of the Yankees and Red Sox: It's a pre-emptive deal to avoid him killing the Phils again by being traded to another NL contender.

That said, I've always been a big fan of Conine (the pre-2003 version, at least) and I'm glad to see him finally wear red pinstripes.

Okay, I see after I post that Mike remembers Conine's a Phils killer.

It'll be tough to top that post from Mike this week.

We Phillies fans can't have it both ways - complain about the ones that got away while potty-mouth the ones that are here.

Conine does bring some playoff experience but the Phils actually have to make the playoffs first.

People seem to be overestimating Conine's hitting ability. Conine still has some ability to hit LHP and he might make a useful platoon player with Dellucci. Plus, Conine has the ability to work the count.

Still, Conine's bat speed has really dropped off this season. It is reflected in his numbers against power pitchers (147 ABs, .640 OPS, .252 AVG, 1 HR). Also, Conine used to be a good linedrive hitter. This season only 16% of his balls hit into play are line drives. That is well below his career average.

Finally, Conine has been anything but clutch this season. Conine's numbers with RISP are terrible this season. He his hitting .236 with O HRs in 110 ABs. His numbers in "Close and Late" situations are even worse (hitting .192 with 0 HRs).

Basically, this means that Conine is useful against pitchers who rely more on control than power. Conine is pretty useless late in games since he can be neutralized by power pitchers, especially if they are right-handed.

This move an impact of 2 or 3 out of 10 on their playoff chances. Phils' will make the playoff if their recent strong starting pitching continues and the bullpen can hold up.

The following are the beginning paragraphs of Marcus Hayes' piece in this mornings's Philadelphia Daily News at [http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/15378693.htm ] : "Lieberthal's Back Aching
NEW YORK - For one player, and perhaps his entire team, yesterday's rainout was a blessing.
Phillies catcher Mike Lieberthal aggravated a troublesome back injury Saturday. He was unavailable to play Saturday night. He was unavailable to start yesterday afternoon, a game he normally would have started, since it was a day game after a night game and backup Chris Coste had started the night before.
Lieberthal probably won't play in today's 12:10 p.m. makeup game, either, which was a regularly scheduled off day. The rescheduling could make it easier to give him tomorrow night's game off in Washington as well, since it is a night game following a day game.
Lieberthal said he could have played catcher yesterday in an extreme circumstance, though manager Charlie Manuel was reluctant to put the 34-year-old in that position, especially since the injury seems to be just below the surface even when it isn't flaring.
Lieberthal initially strained his back running the bases in Atlanta on Aug. 9. The injury lingered for a week, he said, then seemed to disappear.
"I just played through it," said Lieberthal.
Actually, he put together a seven-game hitting streak after he hurt his back. Then, an innocuous twist in the outfield during batting practice Saturday brought a spasm that sent Lieberthal back to the trainer's room.
The Phillies did not call up prospect Carlos Ruiz for the weekend, mainly because Lieberthal said he could catch in a pinch. Newly acquired utilityman Jose Hernandez, who is considered the third catcher option because he has caught in the bullpen, said he never has caught in a professional game . . . ."

I like the move. Conine will bring some veteran leadership and has been a pretty good clutch hitter during his career. We are now only one (yes, one!) game out of the wild card lead. Conine can help us take that next step. Who cares if he has an option for next year? We were sent money in the deal. Who cares if he is 40 years old? I will gladly take a Jeff Conine over a Danny Sandoval.

I also just saw this blurb from phillyburbs.com:


Closer Tom Gordon threw in the bullpen in Clearwater, Fla., and experienced no discomfort while using all of his pitches. Sidelined with shoulder inflammation, Gordon is hopeful of returning from the 15-day disabled list later this week.

What's baffling to me about all the pro-Conine posts is not single one mentions Hernandez. He's the same player. And he's already here! Better, actually, if you look at his stats vs. LHP. So saying that Conine replaces Roberson makes no sense. Conine gives us 2 Jose Hernandezes. I'd have preferred Ledee, which gives you both a RH (Hernandez) and a LH (Ledee) stick off the bench. Who's the lefty who pinch-hits late in the game against the other team's RH closer?
P.S. I don't know what to make of the psychological mumbo-jumbo that thedude mentions about having a player "who knows how to win" but if adding Conine somehow makes the guys who can actually play believe in themselves more, I suppose it makes sense. But I still want to know who's the lefty bat off the bench who comes up with the game on the line and a runner in scoring position in the 9th? (And it's not Dellucci or Victorino since they both start vs. RHP)

Let's see, Conine is 40 and Moyer is 43. The article about Lieberthal says he's 34. Using Gillick logic, Lieberthal should be good for another eight or so years as our starting catcher, however, Coste is too old at 33.

We could start an old folks home with Flash Gordon, 38; Rick White, 37; Arthur Rhodes, 36; and Jose Hernandez, 37. I am really confused about all of this youth movement stuff.

Ex-Phillie Vincente Padilla won his 13th game pitching 8 shutout innings. With his 13-8 record and 4.16 ERA, he'd be the ace of this staff. What did we get for him??? Did I hear "nothing"!?

i thought Hernandez looked shaky in the OF the night they got clobbered by NY. along with Burrell, my god... I'd hate to think of him behind the plate.

lake fred:

dude, we're one game out of the wc, you're complaining an awful lot about stuff thats working.

Paul is right. Hernandez looked pretty horrible in that Mets game. I think Conine is an upgrade there.

to be fair to Conine, he's been facing much more difficult pitching in the AL as a whole and the AL East. look at some of his team splits:

.565 OPS vs Boston
.564 OPS vs Angels
.512 OPS vs White Sox
.635 OPS vs Yankees
.340 OPS vs Twins
.432 OPS vs Oakland

that's 130 AB, almost a third of his at-bats. hitting in CBP, against substantially poorer pitching staffs, I think you can expect much better numbers.

I'm still not sure if I like the deal, but in comparing him to Hernandez you do need to take into account who they're posting their numbers against...

OK move, but there is a big possibility Conine is a waste of $2M next year.

Sad to hear about Deulluci not wanting to stay. This means the Phils will have Burrell and 3 CF next year. I'd probably trade Rowand to a team who values intangibles over things like OBP.

Hernandez is more similar to Tucker than Conine. The only difference is that Ed Wade would have traded Carrasco to acquire Conine. I think Moyer and Conine were good trades ... not just because it keeps them off other teams, but because they were probably the bes tplayers availabe.

Joe, I'm not complaining. My post is essentially opinion neutral, just observing about the ages of many players. George Allen won with older players.

I am making a comment about how we don't have anything to show for the Padilla trade.

I would say Adios to Rowand. Other than an occasional HR with lots of strikeouts, I don't see any part of Rowand's game that is superior to Victorino. Victorino should be the starting center fielder on this team next season.

Mike Cunningham for president in 2008. What a post!! I couldn't agree more with each and every statement. Jeff Conine is the consumate pro. I love having him here.

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