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Tuesday, August 01, 2006

Comments

For the first time in my life, I will root for the Yankees.

I also wanted to comment on the idea that the Phillies can be competitive with a lower salary and that they don't have to spend the money saved on Abreu.

The problem with this argument - "I don't care if the don't spend the money" - is that it completely undercuts the rationale for getting rid of Abreu in the first place. In my mind there are only three reason why you should have made the trade: 1) You get better talent in return, 2) you free up money to use in other areas, or 3) ABreu was a clubhouse "cancer" and the team will benefit because he and his magical loosing dust depart.

1) I don't think anyone can justify the trade from this perspective.

2) Anybody who says they don't care if the Phillies increase payroll cannot use this argument. Also, if the teams payroll IS at $75M next year, than this is simply an inccorect reason to like the deal.

3) I think this is really the secret reason most people (only a few like RSB openly admit it) accepted the trade...the Phillies had been loosing and someone had to go. #3 is also known as scapegoating, a despicable practice of arbitrarily assigning blame to one person when of course many are guilty.

Here's hoping Abreu hits .450 for a town that appreciates him and leads the Yankees to the world series...where they are shut down by the unstoppable trio of Hamles/Myers/Mathieson!

I'll also admit to scapegoating a bit, because it's necessary. The Phillies of the past few years have been good on paper, but just haven't gotten it done for some mysterious reason. When you have that sort of situation, your options are to either arbitrarily assign blame or continue with a disproven formula.

Even Gillick has admitted this wasn't just a salary dump. It was a personality dump. Time will tell how good or bad of a decision it was, but honestly, I'm more excited for tonight's game than I've been for a Phillies game in a while.

Wow, this excitement thing really has me baffled.

I guess I'm one of the few who is more interested in the longterm future of this team than a few days of excitement in early august for a sub. 500 team. Excitement is a dangerous animal, and often leads to a failure to appreciate the bigger picture.

Fans who acceot organization talking points, are conforatable with scapegoating, and are bought off by a few days of excitement...no wonder ownership thinks fans are idiots.

kdon- yeah, yankee fans are so great that they boo a-rod. c'mon, a-rod is having a down year, and still not all that bad, but they boo the hell out of him because he's not that knobjob jeter.

kdon, what I openly admit is that the Phillies were not going to win with Bobby Abreu. I'm awfully sorry that wasn't as patently obvious to you as it was to the rest of the world, Pat Gillick included. I don't call that "scapegoating", I call it reality. Abreu's $15 million would better serve the Phillies if it's spread around among two, three, or four different players. It wasn't like they fired him like a flunky manager because the team was losing. Gillick tried in vain to trade him before this losing season even began. No one's blaming Abreu for the bad year. Obviously, the pitching's been rotten, and nothing Abreu did could have overcome that. Without changes to the rest of the roster, I'll agree that such a trade holds no water. But I see no reason to assume those changes are not going to surface before next spring.

"I guess I'm one of the few who is more interested in the longterm future of this team than a few days of excitement in early august for a sub. 500 team." - kdon

See if you take out "sub", you basically have last year's team to me.

kdon: Don't confuse the tiny minority of excuse makers on this Web site with the vast majority of fans. The Phillies attendance will fall. This team is now far worse than it was before these moves and will play losing baseball. The excuse makers think Gillick's moves have been golden but if you run down the list, you see that's not so. He will truly have to pull off a major performance reversal if he's going to make this team a contender within 3 years. The majority of trades and free agent signings he's made so far have been poor.

Will: Last year's team finished 1 game out of the playoffs. Were you watching?

I would NEVER cheer for the Yankees.

I openly accept (and secretly like) the trade. The Phils were never going to win with the old nucleus. Think Utley, Howard, Myers, Hamels, and Wolf.

Thanks Kdon.

The reason I'm excited, obviously, is for the future of the team. In the next few months we'll be able to see players develop who we now know nothing about, we'll see how our established guys will respond now that they know their jobs are not untouchable, and basically we'll get to see a new team develop nearly from scratch. We don't know what will happen; that's where the excitement comes from. I'm sorry if that's got you baffled, but some of us actually (gasp!) enjoy this game.

And please, kdon, clout, the like, understand that giving the ownership some credit for actually doing what you wanted it to for once is not equivalent to "accepting talking points". When one thinks for oneself, there are options other than being perenially cynical or perenially gullible.

" Abreu's $15 million would better serve the Phillies if it's spread around among two, three, or four different players. "

This is THE crucial question, and I think this position is far more defensible than the scapegoating argument. I don't believe the money will go to three or four different players, I think it will stay in the owners pockets.

I have admitted that if the team reinvests this money in other ways, I will change my position on the trade and admit I'm wrong. However, I have yet to hear one pro-trade person admit that if the money IS NOT spent, they will reavaluate their position. From what I saw in the earlier threads, people are already making excuses.

Bobby abreu, grounds out to 2b first AB.

Hey RSB, for someone who last night or a couplle nights ago bemoaned the way ppl questioned your crediibility as a fan or whatever, you sure keep slinging angry personal attacks at people. I think it's time to let it go and stick with baseball analysis.

"In the next few months we'll be able to see players develop who we now know nothing about, we'll see how our established guys will respond now that they know their jobs are not untouchable, and basically we'll get to see a new team develop nearly from scratch."

What, exactly does the Abreu trade have to do with this point. You're excited to see David Dellucci and Matt Smith? What new players, Hamels, Myers, Mathieson, Utley, Howard, etc...you know they were already here, right, were you excited to see them before?

Change is of course exciting, but take about two steps back at get some perspective man.
All the players I'm excited about were already hear and none of the players I'm excited about came in the Abreu trade.

wow, of course hear=here.

KDon, Very nicely stated. I would also like to know where the additional $8M saved this year is going besides David Montgomery's pockets. I would argue that should allow the Phils to increase payroll next year if necessary.

I also heard the argument from John Marzano that even if the payroll is at $75M then the "flexibility" will allow them to acquire someone at next year's trade deadline whereas in the past they were limited to what they could accomplish because they were always at the payroll limit. My question is who are attempting to acquire -- A-Rod and Randy Johnson to need $15M for 2 months ?

The trade makes no sense other than
1. Increase profits for the owners or
2. Your Abreu as a "cancer" theory

clout: you honestly believe that the phils last year could've beaten any of those teams had they made the playoffs? were you watching?

I want a World series championship not a futile playoff appearance. This is where we differ.

anybody notice how bobby almost hustled out that groundball to 2nd? I haven't seen that from him in 2 years.

yeah, i saw that too

Now that the Phils' fans (mob) doesn't have Abreu to stick their knives into anymore. I wonder who is the next target . . . my bet is Uncle Charlie.

If Uncle Charlie is actually around to start next year (my money definitely say yes since the Phils owe him $1 million bucks), he will become the favorite whipping boy again just as he was earlier this season.

MG - probably, but now that the expectation isn't the postseason, it will probably temper things a bit (notice I say a bit).

Chase!!! Nothing like our awesome 2B to bring out the positive vibes.

If Manuel is here next year, it's a clear indication this team has no interest in winning.

Clout's prognostication will likely turn out correct ... fans will start staying away. The public knows they are sellers, Gillick said the 5 more wins won't happen, so that's a signal to a lot of people the season is wrapping up. Plus, this is the time fans start staying away anyway - the real dog days like today. Plus, E-A-G-L-E-S.

33 games. We'll take it.

Why does Nunez hit in front of Coste? Can't figure it out. I'd have Utley 2nd and Delucci third.

I have a different opinion of Charlie Manuel. I agree that he is not good with X's and O's and maybe a better staff around him that he listened to good help remedy that situation. I think he would be a good positive influence on a young club especially if they are going to struggle.

Phils attendance will still be between 2.5 and 2.6M this year. If Chase keeps streaking, higher as he can break Rose's NL record at next home stand; I know it is a long ways off. Advanced tickets sold is already at 2.4M. They only have 23 home games remaining including 4 with the Mets that will all draw at least 35k. How many people actually will attend these games is another matter. What the Phils need to be concerned about is next year's attendance. I loved the slogan in Conlin's piece -- Red means wait till 2008.

Hey Jeff, if you have been reading the recent string of kdon's posts referring to mine, you might understand my need to respond with strongly worded comments of my own. In this case, I didn't particularly care for my being associated with the term "dispicable", as used to refer to the practice of scapegoating. Still, I didn't attack him or attempt to undermine anyone's integrity. We can push and pull back and forth all day and all year, but I am perfectly willing to address anyone respectfully who does the same with me.

I don't actually see where any of this concerns you either way, but if you're going to insinuate that I'm a hypocrite, I'm compelled to defend myself. Sorry to anyone else who is tired of my little treatises on etiquette, but I think that a few people here could stand to pay them some attention.

Also, why hasn't Manuel taken any heat about all the comments from Wagner and Lidle. THe manager more than anyone (certainly the RF) sets the tone and the culture of a team.

Burrell may be an ass, but he is hardly the first 30HR hitter with an attitude problem. ANyone think we would hear these comments about a lack of desire if Leyland, Davey Johnson, or Pinnela were the manager?

the reason you bat Coste 8th, is so opposing pitchers can pitch around him with runners in scoring position, and then get an easy out from our pitcher.

its pure genius!

Abreu battles back after being down 0-2 to draw 9 pitch walk. Typical Abreu discipline.

FWIW, I didn't actually take offense to anything RSB said...well, the reasoning yes, but not the tone :-)

I don't know how a prediction about the future - the Phillies not winning with Abreu - can be "patently obvious" to anyone, but I wouldn't put soothsaying outside of RSBs talents.

It was most revealing that Manuel played dumb and said he didn't know what Lidle was talking about.

Well, either Lidle's pulling this out of his ass or Manuel's just plain out of touch. Either way, it's plain to see CM is no leader and the team as it's been could surely have used a stronger one. Gillick's endorsement of Manuel *beyond* this season was very surpising, though who knows if it means anything. I would think one way to try to sway disillusioned fans back would be to get a manager who has more credibility.

Mathieson looks mechanically sound for a young pitcher. He's not getting hitters to chase bad balls like he can in the minors, but I like that a lot of his stuff arrives down in the zone. His future should be as a groundball pitcher with heavy sinking fastball. I think Mathieson has promise.

I think Mathieson has a good chance of being a very good pitcher for the Phillies. With him, Myers, Hamels, and Wolf they have the basis for a very good staff like the Tigers a few years back

I said yesterday, there's something to be said about a hard hit ball rather than a walk. For example, the ball Utley hit that Pujols bobbled and Suppan froze on. Look how that carried over to Howard's AB.

You mean Utley caused Howard to get jammed and break his bat? That is impressive.

He got ahead in the count 3-1, bases loaded.

Rowand ... awful arm. Awful.

Thank you Jason.

Mathieson does look like he might have a bright future, but at this point his command doesn't look like it's any better than Madson's. He has a nice changeup but he doesn't show any kind of breaking stuff - or at least, he doesn't seem to have any confidence in it. Still, I like the idea of him being up here, now. It gets major league experience under his belt, and it will indicate whether the Phillies can possibly consider him in their plans for next season.

That 'thank you' was for a comment of yours which you have since deleted. I wish you hadn't.

I completely agree with RSB. It is better for mathieson and hamels to learn trial by fire. Howard hit his 36th

"He got ahead in the count 3-1, bases loaded."

Sorry, I misunderstood. I guess the opposite point is that after a walk, a pitcher is more likely to throw a first pitch fastball to get ahead in the count and it makes the pitcher throw more pitches.


Howard been pulling the ball more since the HR Derby. Rather than having some kind of adverse effect, it seems to have him swinging more effectively on pitches on the inner half, without affecting his ability to drive balls away from him. With just a little better batting eye and pitch selection, he could hit 60 someday.

...sorry, left out a 'has'.

Great inning by Mathieson. Way to recover and put down the heart of the order in 1-2-3

Zach: I feel sorry for you, really I do.

"The Phillies of the past few years have been good on paper, but just haven't gotten it done for some mysterious reason." The "mysterious reason" is known as "lack of quality starting pitching." This has been the major problem since the Schilling trade.

"The reason I'm excited, obviously, is for the future of the team. In the next few months we'll be able to see players develop who we now know nothing about, we'll see how our established guys will respond now that they know their jobs are not untouchable, and basically we'll get to see a new team develop nearly from scratch. We don't know what will happen; that's where the excitement comes from." No offense intended, but this is why little kids enjoy rooting for a team. The rest of us -- including those despised professional sports writers from out of town -- take the position that when you finish one game out of the playoffs because of a lack of pitching, you actually spend a few more bucks and GET SOME MORE PITCHING. In all the discussion of the last few days, I have seen NOBODY acknowledge that this was a potential route to a better team that the Phillies rejected because, God forbid, they might have lost a few bucks.

Nice bounce back inning by Mathieson. He definitely has impressive stuff. Not everyday do you come across a pitcher who can consistantly hit 95-97 MPH. He has a nice slider to go along with it.

Chris Freaking Coste...UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

I've seen enough of Chris Coste to say the Phillies have found themselves a quality no. 2 catcher. He's a legitimate major league player.

I agree RSB. I am not sold on handing the man a starting catcher gig, but I have no problem whatsoever with him being the backup here for a while.

And hey, even Roberson gets in on the act...!

So, a passable outing by Mathieson. No hits in 4 out of 5 innings. Pitched well enough to win, let's hope he does.

Alby, you're the one I feel sorry for. You cling to your cynicism and try to say any fan who actually gets anything about watching a work in progress is no more sophisticated than a little kid. Well, maybe people who are able to allow their pure enjoyment of baseball to be unaffected by such obstinate bitterness have the upper hand when it comes to being fans.

The Phillies are in the midst of *developing* pitching at the major league level. That is something very much connected to their immediate future. Would you rather they try to trade again for established mediocrities like Kevin Millwood and Eric Milton? Would you have preferred the Phillies have traded Ryan Howard for Kip Wells, since pitching is so all-important?

Gillick has said that his philosophy is for a team to develop its own pitching. Well, that's exactly what is happening now. God forbid we get excited for these kids when they do well.

Yeah, RSB, you're a little kid, too. I get excited when the team is good, not when some young pitcher throws "4 out of 5 shutout innings." I"m not cynical, I'm realistic. Who said anything about trading Howard for pitching? Ever hear of the free agent market -- the very thing you cheerleaders claim we can now afford? You act as if the $90 million ceiling is something besides an arbitrary figure set by our cheapskate owners. Grow up, sonny, and stop pretending you know something about baseball.

I'm not pretending anything, Alby. I wonder if you can say the same.

Really? You're not pretending? Then I suppose you think Abreu's lack of a "winning attitude" will drag the Yankees out of the playoff hunt. Because that's the logical conclusion of you cheerleaders -- the guy doesn't know how to win and poisons the winning atmosphere of any team he's on. Bring it on, chump.

>Chris Freaking Coste...UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

yeh, as someone here said before, if Disney hasn't bought the rights to his story, they should, soon.

its hard to argue against playing him more. he's beating the cr*p out of the ball, and is handling the pitching staff beautifully. this should be his audition for the starting job next year.

or hell, lets see him at 3b, too. i cant believe that i'm going to say this, but i miss david bell.

No, I don't think Abreu will have a negative affect on the Yankees. Do me a favor and don't address me again. I'm through talking with people who can't show simple respect.

Okay, time to reel it in. I know it's a frustrating time. The whole situation is a shame. But no one is interested in reading a thread that is one, long angry argument. I don't want people to be afraid to make comments, especially new posters, or even the guys that have been here from the beginning. Keep the dialogue civil, and if you feel you're being attacked, don't take the bait.

Alby, if they spent over their income to get to that 1 game from the post-season, what makes you think they'd spend more over that to get the rest of the way?

The sad thing is you guys think that the Phils could spend $120 million and still have enough left over to use solid gold bases.

Coste looks a little like the President.

George W. Coste.

And no ... that does not give anyone license to discuss politics here.

Weitzel, you rule

I'm not the one who threw around the stuff about cynicism and obstinate bitterness. I'm neither. RSB just can't stand anyone who disagrees with him, and his "stop addressing me" proves it. Jason, this is about nothing beyond whether Abreu was traded for peanuts. Those defending the trade have no rational leg to stand on, and I stand by my analysis: If he's such a clubhouse cancer, I assume the Yankees must be doomed. RSB, if you're not one of the ones claiming that, I'm sorry. But stop trashing people just because they don't root hard enough for minor leaguers.

Will, the problem with Philadelphia ownership is that they have very shallow pockets. Any ownership group that retreats from raising the payroll when they miss the playoffs by one game can't afford the stakes of the game they're in. Unfortunately they won't sell because Bill Giles becomes a nobody the minute they do.

nice inning by rhodes?

damn, we need an ex-pitcher/scab to piss him off everyday! :-)

Abreu went 0-for-3 with a walk. The Yankees overcame the cancer of his failure to deliver a hit or RBI to win the game, 5-1.

I would say Geary is one of the most underrated players on the team right now.

The Yankees and the rest of the AL contenders have bigger issues to worry about than chemistry, in particular, that thing in Minnesota.

Wow, unbelievable how dead the Cardinals looked tonight. Great job by the bullpen.

Jason, I hear ya. But when someone says something unfair and damning about you *personally* it is very hard to just let that stand. And for the record, it is yet another falsehood that I "can't stand anyone who disagrees with me". Not so. What I can't stand, and won't tolerate, is people who can't treat me and *my* views with respect. I don't mandate that anyone agrees with me. I do mandate standards of decency in all discourse in which I participate. And that's what my "stop addressing me" proves. It's no different than arguing with an umpire. Disagree all you like, and in no uncertain terms. But don't cross the line and make it personal.

Didn't get a chance to listen to game but looks like Mathieson was a bit wild with 5 BBs but Phils picked up the win. One reason to follow the rest of this season is Hamel/Mathieson starts along with Howard's chase of Schmidt's season HR record.

Here's my take. I agree with Alby that it is the lack of first rate pitching that has prevented the Phils from being a playoff team.

I disagree with Alby that free agency is the way to get it. The Schillings and Carltons (who came via trade) are few and far between. I don't have any research to back me up, but my gut tells me that most big time ace starter free agents bust more often than succeed. Many a star pitcher fizzled when leaving his original team for the big bucks. The exceptions are guys like Schilling, Maddux, Johnson. Remember Kevin Brown? He never lived up to his big bucks. Look at Hudson in Atlanta. The fizzlers are all over.

I believe the way to develop a good starting staff is to grow it from within. I feel good about the youth movement the Phils have right now. I think Myers and Hamels could develop into aces. Matheson, Madson and even Floyd, if properly coached could be effective starters. Maybe Foghorn and Dubee Doo just don't have the magic touch.

We also need a Nostrodamus to foretell the future and identify which prospects will develop and which are a waste of time. Does Gillick have that ability? I don't know.

RSB: Let's bury the hatchet. I actually agree with almost everything you say. Where you lost me was with this:

"just by watching them, an observer can tell they play as if they don't expect to win. And Abreu was the poster child for that attitude."

I would argue, strongly, that Burrell, not Abreu, is the poster child for that attitude. I agree with kdon that Abreu comes off as withdrawn because he is not comfortable with his English. I would concur with you that he doesn't play hard in the field; if it weren't for his speed he would be a born DH, because all he seems to care about is his next AB. Reviewing the comments of the past few days, I find most of the truly objectionable crap about how great it is that we dumped him comes from others, and I shouldn't have lumped you in with them without checking. For that I apologize.

Another comment. I liked Abreu. I didn't love Abreu. I wish him well. I'm not going to root for the Yankees.

I have a neighbor, born and raised here in New Orleans. He's a Yankees fan. Why, because he likes rooting for a front runner. It takes no character to root for a front runner. Unless you grow up and/or live in the metro New York area, you have no valid reason to be a Yankees fan.

Who enjoyed their last World Series wins the most? Yankee fans, Red Sox fans or White Sox fans? Last place goes to New York. To them winning the World Series is...ho hum...expected. It doesn't take any character to root for the Yankees. Root for the Tigers, Twins, White Sox, Red Sox, Angels, or Rangers in the AL. Don't root for the Yankees. Any true downtrodden suffering Phillies fan can understand this rationale.

Lake Fred: I agree, it's better to grow your own. The problem here is -- or rather, was -- that the position players like Abreu and Burrell are in their prime, and won't be by the time the young pitchers develop. I wasn't asking them to go out and sign and ace; there wasn't one on the market. But Gillick must have realized they needed more pitching, or he wouldn't have signed Franklin. All I'm asking is that they sign someone who could have cracked one of the weakest rotations in the league.

I am glad to see that you, unlike too many others, are not ready to throw Madson on the scrap heap or put him back in the bullpen. I'm not sure he'll be a top starter, but he has three good pitches; he needs to learn to throw them for strikes without catching too much of the plate. Giving up on him this fast strikes me as shamefully premature. One benefit of rebuilding should be that he can stay in the rotation without much pressure. At the least, his experience puts him ahead of Hamels, Mathieson and Floyd in his development.

You say Burrell, I say Abreu. Actually, I say both. And when you have two big-name players on one team who display a certain detachedness, it's bound to have an effect on the team at large.

But I don't begrudge you that you don't feel that way abut Abreu. Whatever, you know? There's no way to prove it either way. I see something that you don't, and vice versa.

But you can feel free to lump me in with those who say how great it is that we dumped Abreu. I think it is great. I have total respect for Abreu's abilities. And I never would have said he was a "cancer". I just didn't like the approach he took to the game. And I'm not sorry to see that approach and whatever influence it had, or that which *I perceive* that it had, pack up and leave. To me, it was something that was bigger than all his stats. I think his presence - not singlehandedly, but in combination with others - was keeping this team down as much as it was helping.

By the way Alby, one thing we definitely agree on is Madson.

Jason Varitek had to get surgery and is on the 15 DL. Think we can run Lieberthal through waivers and see if we can trade him for practically nothing to the BoSox. I'm for that trade because it give Lieby a shot at a pennant, and more importantly Coste and Ruiz behind the plate for the rest of the season. I'm still high on Ruiz. I truly think he could be a nice starting C for the Phils batting in the 7th or 8th hole with respectable #'s. He also plays better D than Lieby.

Also, very glad to see Mathieson pitch decently against a good team. He was wild, but not horribly wild. I watched where some of the pitches were, and he wasn't getting any ball that were high in the zone. He and Hamels should learn a lot for the last 2 months of the season that should only help for '07.

Despite management's decision to "retool", the Phillies have now crawled to within 4 1/2 games of the wild-card lead. I know few on this board believe that the team has the fundamentals, particularly the pitching, to take the wild card slot, the club has now won six of its last eight games. At least so far, thw wild care is *possible*. Who knows.

Now, without the typos. Despite management's decision to "retool", the Phillies have now crawled to within 4 1/2 games of the wild-card lead. I know few on this board believe that the team has the fundamentals, particularly the pitching, to take the wild card slot, the club has now won six of its last eight games. At least so far, the wild card is at least *possible*. Who knows.

A wild card for the phillies would be the story of the baseball year! However, it is highly improbably, albeit...still possible. I know many here think this team will stink because of Abreu's absence from the team the rest of the season. I for one don't think it will change all that much. They may just play better ball from here on out.

Not to mention the fact that they play under .500 teams from Aug 21 on. The key is getting through the next 3 weeks of 10 Mets games relatively unscathed. This is the perfect time for them to get hot.

Sorry, they play the Mets Aug. 25-27. But from the 18th on, that's the only above .500 series they play. (granted, they're not over .500 themselves).

In one of the earlier threads, there was some comments from Abreu saying something like "I don't dive for balls or run into walls." Even though, that is not an exact quote, it shows that he won't do what other players routinely do to win games. I watch ESPN. I see guys diving for balls every night. Rowands running into a wall (fence) endeared him to the fans.

Abreu was a very good player, but he was not the ideal player for the Phillies. I am not sad that he's gone. I don't think we lose that much with Dellucci taking Abreu's place

I hope Myers pitches a shut out tonight because the offense hasn't been supporting him since his return.

"yeh, as someone here said before, if Disney hasn't bought the rights to his story, they should, soon."


I said that! :-)

I propose "The Rookie 2". Heck, if they can make "Invincible" and, well, "The Rookie", surely Disney can make "The Chris Coste Story".

BTW, just to address something said by RSB way back in this thread about Cholly - I hate Cholly and wish we had Leyland, but I don't think his "I don't know anything about that Lidle stuff" is a sign of cluelessness, but rather part of his philosophy of keeping that stuff in the clubhouse, out of the media. I actually like him for that - that he sticks with his principles and doesn't ever take the bait. That's definitely his best trait, that he never ever trashes his own players to the media, only inside the clubhouse (I'm presuming).

Ed, I like your take on Foghorn's cluelessness. He probably is keeping private stuff private. A Manager shouldn't normally trash his present and former players in the media.

Manuel will finish out the season as manager, but if we're bringing in new faces of players, it's time for new faces on the coaching staff too! If you're going dismantle and rebuild, do it for real!

I've been tuning into these dicussions for a while now - I wonder if it's useful to contrast the fan reception Manny Ramirez gets in Boston with the way people feel about Abreu. Manny also dogs it in the field, but he also requests a trade every year, occasionally acts like a clueless jackass, and generally seems to lack any shred of intensity. Boston fans deal with this by playing the "just Manny being Manny" card. What enables them to do this? The fact that Manny - like Abreu - has been the best and most consistent offensive player on the team over the last five years.

Do you think the Sox fanbase would EVER allow Manny to be traded for four middling prospects? I'm not saying that Abreu is on par with Manny in terms of value; I'm just saying that I don't think we should be happy with a salary dump that traded away one of the Phils' best players, their second-best starter (sadly enough), and didn't make the team even remotely better. Jayson Stark on ESPN mentions that at least 3 other teams offered better packages for LIDLE ALONE. So why couldn't we have waited to get a better offer for Abreu in the offseason?

Simply put, Pat got fleeced. We didn't solve the 3B problem. We didn't fix our crapshoot 2006-2007 rotation (will Hamels make the leap? will Wolf come back? will Myers go completely insane?). Moreover, it's hard to see how the solutions to these problems will be in the offseason FA market. I don't want to see us spend years "developing talent" and "replenishing the farm system" and then turn around and realize that we've wasted the prime years of Utley and Howard, two of the most exciting Phillies players I can remember.

Agreed. We need a new creative direction coming from the dugout next season. I would like to see the entire coaching staff come from outside of the organization for a change. It's time to part with this stubborn loyalty to people from within. While that loyalty is to be commended in some aspects, it has not been producing results. Much like this team starting to evolve, it is time to change up the philosophy with regard to the coaching staff as well.

Didn't the BoSox place Manny on waivers a few years back ? They were willing to give him away if someone would take his gigantic contract. Nunez watch: another 0-4 with 2 strikeouts.

Re: Nunez - yeh, he's stinking the joint up. I'm starting to miss david bell.

We may as well see what Coste can do at third, and have lieberthal catch.

thats one helluva lot better lineup than anything with ruiz in it.

Baseball America creates an annual Top 100 minor league prospects list based on the insights of its writers and input from general managers, scouting directors, farm directors, scouts, managers and instructors. From the Baseball America 2006 Top 100 Prospects list only one player was traded at this year's deadline: Joel Guzman of the Dodgers. And Guzman was slipping in some scouts' eyes. And, given what was traded elsewhere, one could make a strong case that the Dodgers gave up too much in trading Guzman for two months of Julio Lugo.

So if no GM can grab a can't-miss prospect from this list -- and BA is about as authoritative as it gets -- then why should we expect Gillick to get one?

Bottom line: In today's MLB when you dump salary, you dump salary. You don't get anything else. Critics of the Abreu trade need to accept it.

The Red Sox and Phillies are entirely two different animals, as are Manny Ramirez and Bobby Abreu. Manny is a sure lock for the Hall, regardless of his stupidity.

Also, you cannot say that Pat did not fix the 3B and C positions. He freed up 15 million to pursue those question marks in the off-season. While I cannot stand Nunez playing everyday, I really doubt he will be the starting third baseman next year.

Until Gillick spends the money unwisely, which I highly doubt, I am willing to give him the chance of continuing to steer this thing in the right direction. Ridding the team of Abreu, Bell, Franklin and Fasano were the first steps of many in the reshaping of the image of this team.

I believe that Pat didn't get fair value, but there are certain major flaws to your comparison.

1) The red sox command much larger revenue than phillies. If the Yankees bring in $300 million a year, I doubt the red sox revenue is below $200million. So while both contracts represent 1/6 of the teams payroll, they do not represent nearly the same percentage of total revenue.

2) The phillies have not marketed abreu as much as the sox have Manny. Also, Manny was part of the WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONSHIP. And his accomplishments during that season will endear him forever to those fans. Meanwhile, Abreu has been part of perennially under-achieving team (abreu's role in that is unknown).

3) Jason Stark's piece simply doesn't make sense. The yanks offered to buy out Abreu contract straight up, we know this. If the lidle rumors are true, Gillick didn't get fleeced, he went retarded. It would simply be beyond stupid since both goals would be completed. While thinking the trade was bad is fair enough, thinking such a braindead thing would happen is just plain silly.

I still think Carlos Ruiz can be a very good backup catcher or at least aveage starting catcher. He hits very well in triple A. That doesn't necessarily mean lighting it up for the Phils, but I could see a .260-.270 ba with average other #'s.

re: Ruiz.

I think that its been stated omn here before that Ruiz had issues in the majors calling games, and getting the confidence of his pitchers, in a major major way.

Alright, just got back to a computer now, so in response to the comment about being like a "kid" when it comes to enjoying the game, thank you.

As for the other stuff, I think it's been argued to death at this point already. I'm looking forward to tonight's game.

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EST. 2005

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