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Tuesday, August 08, 2006

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YIpes! I guess he fits in on injury history, at least so far...

Someone raised a good question yesterday: Who's the best Phillies home-grown pitcher since Robin Roberts? What think you, J?

Tough question. I think Myers and Wolf are running neck and neck from the modern era, and are probably better than anyone from the past 10 years. Chris Short was around a while and had some very good seasons, but that was way before my time. Mark Davis won the Cy Young for San Diego, but I don't include him in the mix. The guy I'll go with is Kevin Gross, who had a strong career as a workhorse starter on some bad teams. I think he could be toppled if Myers finishes the year strong.

Phils need to keep close tabs on Hamels' innings with his injury history and lack of innings pitched as a professional. He's thrown 119 innings so far this year (majors and minors). Previous best was 101 in 2003 split between Clearwater and Lakewood.

Chris Short was best Philly since Roberts, but he was also before my time. Larry Christensen was decent although Myers and Wolf should surpass him. Bob Walk had a fairly long if uneventful career if you want to make a case for Kevin Gross.

Once again...excited for another Phillies baseball game. The Phils need to smack Hudson around and give Hamels some runs to work with. I think if Hamels can keep his walks down tonight then he'll probably go 7-8 strong innings.

Weitz- question for you, or anyone that can answer it. I've known that the Phillies have a Venezuela and Dominican team, but how do they end up in the majors? Do they go to Clearwater or Low A? Do they have the purchase the contract? Please explain.

I guess the question of Best Philly-Grown Pitcher should be qualified -- is it best overall, including non-Phillies years, or best that they trained and kept? I'm guessing it leads to two different answers...

Ferguson Jenkins signed with the Phils in '62 and made the majors in '65. He was then promptly traded to the Cubbies and had 15 above average years. He's my pick.

DQ, Phils have academies in Venezuela and Dominican Republic. There is a training complex there and they also fly in instructors. The Phils in the academies are teenagers -- normally signed at about 16. Some will be assigned to Low A or Rookie leagues when ready. Academies also provide instruction to help acclimate them to American life. The mechanics of how contracts are purchased by Lakewood I don't know, but these players are under contract with the Phillies.

Jenkins is a hall of famer. He certainly is the best Philly drafted, but he only pitched a few innings with the Phils. If we are counting how well they pitched as a Philly, my vote stays Short first and Christenson second. Actually Rick Wise who was traded for the greatest Philly pitcher ever Steve Carlton actually had a decent career too, but no Jenkins.

Burrell sitting again. Cholly is starting to use him like a platoon player.

Like tonight's lineup. Dellucci behind Howard gives better protection than Rowand. Like Coste moved up to 6th spot and Victorino in 2 hole.

Jenkins is an excellent one. Rick Wise is a good choice ... honestly, I'm not the best at Phillies history and need to look up anything past 80. Billy Mac explained the rookie leagues for me. You'll recognize some of the names for the Gulf Coast team, including Kyle Drabek, Adrien Cardenas and the two young players they acquired in the Abreu deal. I've read very favorable reports on Cardenas. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he ranked first next season among Phillies position prospect, just because the field is that shallow.

It appears the comment counter is back up and running.

Bad feeling about this one...

My mother and uncles schooled me on Clay Dalrymple and Del Ennis. Eddie Waitkus could do no wrong because he was a Slav like us. We were poor growing up in the Coal Region after all... lol

6 innings, 80 pitches, 6 Ks, 1 walk... some fine stats there by King Cole. He's a lot of fun to watch, too. These aggressive moves on the bases don't help, though...

Cole was very impressive yet again tonight. It's great to see him mature as a legitimate pitcher and possible future ace. Too bad we cannot say the same thing about Nunez. I am tired of seeing him make out after out after out. It's even worse that we cannot pinch hit for him late in the games. One of our relievers needs to be shipped down and either King or Scales should be recalled so we can at least pinch hit for Nunez and then replace him defensively.

Amazing how the comments about Abreu have dried up like the phils' chances. How about "Batting 3rd for the first place Yankees, no. 53 Bobby Abreu!" Followed by an enormous ovation and another hit, walk, rbi or run scored. It's amazing how a guy can get revitalized when he doesn't have to play for a perennial loser. I guess Jeter probably knows a little bit more about baseball then the clueless Philly Phaithful (he's a big fan of Abreu too). Go Yanks! Enjoy your 70 million dollar payroll with all the phlexibility that comes with it.

On a side note, in 8 years when they still haven't won and the pitching still sucks, I'll enjoy listening to the same Phans who can't wait to get that same type of phlexibility by dumping Utley and Howard's salaries.

Damn, the Yankees must have lost their lead for Laughable to come and post in this blog. Yup, Crede just went yard, 4-4 now.

The track record of the Phils' developing starting pitching over the past 30 years has been as stellar as Ford's efforts at developing sedans for the domestic market. Both are examples of a few successes with numerous failures in between.

Damn. That looked close.

Rick White on fire!

I can only see this on the 60 second update on the internet, is Nunez really batting at a time like this?

There is no stopping the hit-machine, Abraham Nunez.

I can't believe it. Nunez got a hit!

Lake Fred - Unfortunately. This bench is pretty pathetic right now.

This lost was brought to you Geary. Nice relief job loser.

Dudes, "The Reaper" is catching on!

This loss was brought to you Geary. Nice relief job appearance.

Cole got ripped. He pitches 6 innings, gives up one run and gets tagged with a loss. Geary gets one out, gives up two runs, one which is the winning run and gets off with an unblemished record. There is no joy in Mudville tonight.

Top 10 homegrown pitchers since Roberts, ranked by wins for the Phillies:

1. Chris Short 132
2. Curt Simmons 115
3, Larry Christenson 83
4. Dick Ruthven 78
5, Rick Wise 75
6. Randy Wolf 65
7. Kevin Gross 60
8. Art Mahaffey 58
9. Don Carman 53
10. Brett Myers 50

I wasn't sure if Simmons should count, since he was a contemporary of Roberts; if you exclude him, #10 is Ray Culp, with 43. Perhaps the most surprising thing is that Myers has, in his relatively short career, already hit the top 10.

Top 10 pitchers developed by the Phillies in total ML wins:

1. Ferguson Jenkins 264 (2 for the Phillies)
2. Simmons 193
3. Wise 188
4. Gross 142
5. Short 135
6. Ruthven 123
7. Ray Culp 122 (43 for Philly)
8. Bob Walk 105 (11 for Philly)
9. Andy Ashby 98 (6 for Philly)
10. Tom Underwood 86 (28 for Philly)
10. Grant Jackson 86 (23 for Philly)

A case can by made that neither of these lists is very impressive given the time frame covered -- a solid half-century. And if you look at his stats, Fergie Jenkins, with a 9-year run during which he averaged over 300 innings pitched per year, is close to a dead ringer for Robin Roberts, statiscally speaking.

Jenkins is also the only pitcher on the second list whose trade represents a major mistake. The others who won more for other teams than they did for Philly are Wise, who of course was traded even-up for Carlton; K. Gross, the chronic underachiever; Walk, who compiled a workmanlike career under Jim Leyland in Pittsburgh; Ray Culp, who overcame arm problems to log several decent years for the Bosox in the '60s; and the lamentable Andy Ashby. Underwood was a contemporary of Ruthven and Christenson; Grant Jackson, after phlopping as a starter for Philly in the late 60s, logged a long career as a reliever on contending teams in Baltimore and Pittsburgh.

All in all, enough to make like the current minor league crop look like the Golden Age of Phillies pitching prospects.

I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to 'Laughable', but I just wanted to point out that Abreu has a grand total of 2 RBI since joining the Yankees, including tonight's game. Impact player, my keyster.

Alby, thanks for the list. I was around for Chris Short. He was the No. 2 starter of a staff where Jim Bunning (now U.S. Senator Bunning) was the ace. Short had three successive good seasons in this roll with some great stats. That was about it for Short.

I agree, that this current crop looks the best. I think Hamels is the real deal and Myers is solid.

the list was very interesting. i hope that someday hamels and myers top both those lists. tonight's performance was very impressive by hamels

True- the offense failed to show up tonight against a pitcher that has struggled mightily this season...sound familiar? We as Phils fans know that if a pitcher wants to get back on track, just face our offense. I think Gavin Floyd needs to pitch against his own team to succeed...anyway, I'm getting off point.

I blame tonight's loss again on defense. I like Victorino, but he should have caught both those balls (i.e. triple and double). He didn't get back to the wall on the trip, or take a good route on the doub, and both went on to score. So take those 2 runs off the board and what do you have...1-1 game. D has killed the Phils!

BloodStripes- we need White to start a good ol' fashioned base-brawl!

If "Ugly Beard" White ever started a fight, I don't think the other side would want to mess with him. He looks like an evil mad man.

White could put them in a headlock and rub that scruffy goatee on them...brilo pad style!

DQ: Put the blame where it really lies: Geoffe Geary's shoulder.

I'm thinking that Cole got a too-early hook tonight. He only had 80 pitches in 6 innings, and the batters were baffled. Cholly did the Braves a favor by pulling Cole.

Back to the Victorino in right thing. Wouldn't it be better if Manuel put Dellucci in right whenever he is going to play, since he plays there a majority of the time? It makes more sense to have the left-handed Dellucci in right and the right handed Victorino in left. I know Victorino can sub at all positions, but I think he would be better to stick with left and center, and possibly the rare start in right when Dellucci is not playing.

I agree that Vic should have been in left and Dell in right, but Manuel probably wanted the strong-armed Vic in right. It's not just the errors that are hurting this team, it's the lack of making plays that should be made and are ruled hits. Puts more pressure on the pitchers and more runs on the board for the opposing team. Disgraceful!

I agree with you Joe. Hamels was pulled too early. Unless there was some sort of small problem that they're scaling back his pitches.

But the situation: 2 out, man on second, didn't even necessarily warrant his pulling Hamels. A hit wouldn't have definitely scored a run. They'd still have 6 outs to get a run. Now if they had the 7,8,9 rotation that shut the door last year, I would think differently.

They are being understandably cautious with Hamels and his innings. I had no problem with the Phils lifting him after 6. Dellucci does not have arm for right field; Vic in right (despite last night's misplay) is correct move.

Also give some credit to Hudson. He had excellent location and movement on his fastball and a good sinker. Best I've seen him throw in a while.

We need Wolf to step up this afternoon and the Offense to back him.

I'm trying to stay positive...it's hard, real hard...because I'm a cynical Phils fan, but I'm trying.

Give me something uplifting BloodStripes!

We need Wolf to step up this afternoon and the Offense to back him.

I'm trying to stay positive...it's hard, real hard...because I'm a cynical Phils fan, but I'm trying.

Give me something uplifting BloodStripes!

sorry for the double post

i agree on hamels - see liriano.

All the posters who said Victorino is a better fielder than Rowand are silent I see. Regarding positions on Victorino & Delluccci: Dellucci is a DH. He's a liability in the OF, not as bad as Pat Burrell, but still below average.
Finally, on Hamels, taking him out was the smart move. He's a kid with an injury history.

clout - please don't agree with me. if you do at least leave some space between our two posts.

Tim...that last post was priceless!

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