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Friday, July 07, 2006

Comments

Jason, you've convinced me. As much as I would hate to lose our only "good" (as in skill, not behavior)starter, I see your logic in that his perceived value may never be higher. His upside potential for the Phillies is less than it was before the Boston wife abuse incident. Other teams may be willing to deal with the devil to get to the World Series. Hopefully they would trade him to the AL, so we don't have to face him much, or have his performance keep us out of the playoffs. (I'm still a dreamer.)

I especially like attaching an anchor to the deal like Burrell, but you could also put Bell on that list. I think the Phillies need a colonic and a complete makeover.

I agree with you Weitzel. Myers is the key to the rebuilding process. If things play out like they should (which never is a guarantee in Philadelphia), Myers would not pitch for the Phillies ever again. That being said, watch him start the second half of the season in San Fran. Regardless, the team needs to move him, sooner rather than later. I can live with him pitching on the road, but I can see him getting crucifided in Philly when he pitches. I don't care if he is pitching a shutout, people will be on him and it will build and build until he blows up again, thus decreasing his value. Trade him now while the best opportunity presents itself.

I like the throw in of Burrell too, but I don't know how many teams other than the major markets like New York, Chicago, or LA would be willing to take on his contract (I would have included Boston, but the whole Myers thing knocks them out - no pun intended). It will be interesting to see how things play out. You were dead on with the Phils number 1 need of pitching. We also have to find a way to get a third baseman and a catcher too. The free agents for next year are not very strong at those positions. What is it? 23 days yet til the deadline? The end of July cannot get here soon enough!

*crucified

Man, I need a spell check sometimes haha.

I'm about as anti-Myers for the domestic abuse as the next guy, but I just really don't like dealing him. It seems like the type of move you make that bites you in the ass 3 years down the line. The guy has definite Ace potential, and will almost certainly be one if he gets his act together. I understand that does substantiate your point that he's our best card to play, but I really don't see us getting near the return value. The market would depreciate him as a headcase and they'd pick him apart. I'd rather just maybe mention him in passing at the meetings as available for a great offer, but other than that don't put him out there. Work on dealing either (or both) Pat or Abreu. As bad as the pitching has been, we can't forget about the offense. We're 28th in baseball for batting average, 20th in OBP (even with Abreu), 29th in AVG with RISP, and 29th in AVG with 2 outs and RISP. We need to get rid of some of the old guard (Abreu, Burrell, Bell, Lieberthal) and rebuild around Ut, Howard, Rowand, Rollins (maybe), etc. Some wholesale changes are in order and I just don't see them being accomplished via trading Myers.

let me be the first to vote NO WAY on trading myers. frankly, i think the thought of it is absurd.

they will unload enough dead weight contracts just by ending the season, so money should not be an issue.

trade burrell if you want. you could get rid of him without throwing in a legit #1/2 starter!! i would like to see abreu go. trade him for pitching. trading a young, front line starter is not the way to build a rotation, especially when there is no way you will get equal value and quality back in the deal.

look at it this way, if you were a fan of another team, and your criteria was merely winning baseball games, would you want your team to acquire myers? i certainly would, especially considering the circumstances where a team might stupidly trade him for 75 cents on the dollar.

i'm not basing my opinion on morals or ethics or anything else besides winning, but i think a lot of you who want myers traded are. for instance, who of you wanted to trade myers before the domestic abuse charge? i doubt anybody. so if you want myers traded based on your personal values, fine. but dont' pretend it has anything to do with baseball, unloading contracts or building a winning club.

Based on your Gillick post last week... I am extremly dubious about the phillies building for the future this year... but this team has run its course and I am sick of following these guys. I am in favor of anything that can bring us a real shot at the post season in the next 2 years.

i am very much against trading brett myers. as far as i know this is a one time incident from a player who has no history of domestic violence or being a bad citizen. yes this is a very bad situation to be in. but this is not the first time a player has gotten put on charges for this. it is no reason to read the riot act and trade away the phillies best AND youngest starting pitcher. remember myers (IIRC) is younger than both howard and utley.

rebuilding is a good idea. but you don't rebuild by trading your young players. that kind of defeats the idea of rebuilding.

I'd ship him out due to the backlash that will continue to fester if you do not. I would have traded him before all of this too, but like any trade, it all depends on what you get in return. Would I move him just for the sake of moving him? No. However, given recent events, I feel the time will never be better than right now to trade him. He is young, cheap, and good. Do you think he will want to stay in Philly when his inexpensive contract is up? With everything that has happened, and the black eye he has given the city, I doubt it. Even more so if the fans are hard on him if he sticks around and isn't traded. Anymore, I would listen to every trade offer involving players from this team, except for those involving Utley.

I would argue against trading Myers at least for the rest of this season. Here are my reasons why...

From a PR standpoint he is such damaged goods you aren't going to get anywhere near the value for a young/cheap talented pitcher.

By the time the offseason hits enough time will have passed that he could've rehab'd his image that another team would be willing to give "fair value" and not take an internal PR hit.

Trading him now, in my opinion would be disasterous and foolish.

I've been thinking about this as well.

LAD may be a good fit, they need a new left fielder as Jose Cruz has not been performing, and Brett Myer's cheapness (only 3.3mill for one year) combined with Burrell's power potential may overwhelm them. LAD's contention status may sway Burrell into waiving his no-trade clause too.

I disagree that what you get in return has to be young. More important is if you do get a vet pitcher, get one with a reasonable, short contract. Also, you need to front load vet pitcher contracts (like Gillick did with Gordon), to be able to unload them should the pitcher fade in his elder years without much of a hit.

As far as losing a #1/2 pitcher in Myers, you could easily get one with the $13 million you would've paid Burrell next year ($15mill in '08).

Dude,
From a PR standpoint, Philadelphia is a million miles from LA. The spousal abuse would be a small mention. It would be a small blip, that would fade as Myers brought them into the playoffs. Remember how all TO's troubles were far away and distant in SF? It's a little bit of the same idea. I doubt it would bring down his trade value at all.

>or being a bad citizen.

Meyers has earned the second worst guy in the locker-room reputation on the team. He's a first class jack ass, and genuinely not a good person.

I asked a reporter friend of mine about him after the boston incident, and his response was "it doesnt surprise me at all, he's a jack ass".

The worst locker room presence? Burrell.

joe

a lot of people close to the playoffs fool themselves into believing that locker room cancers only need a change of scenery. I reference the eagles and TO again. I don't think that if team honestly believe that Myers and Burrell will help them make the playoffs, they will care one bit about the reported lockerroom problems.

Will,
Remember though that TO's rehab occurred in the offseason, I think it further solidifies my point. Yes the LA media market is different, but I dont think the Dodger brass will give up anything of value THIS season for a guy that is publicly damaged goods. The only way to sell it THIS season would be to say we "didn't give up much for him". That is NOT what we want....As to Pat the Bat..he would probably love a trade to LA, no pressure, tons of H'wood ladies. Seems right up his alley.

I totally agree with you Jason. I can't even imagine how ugly it would be if Myers were to pitch another game in Philly. The entire situation is a disgrace (e.g. from Myers saying "I'm sorry it went public" to the Phillies total ineptitude in handling a very serious issue.) The Phillies ought to get what they can for him. It would be best for the team, the city and the fans. Sure, he'll be a number #1/2 pitcher somewhere but that is hardly the point right now. It is not a workable situation here. More importantly, as an organization, the Phillies need to send a clear signal that they have a zero tolerance policy for any kind of domestic violence (regardless of who is involved).

Definitely trade him, provided the deal is a good one which gives us younger players. Note the 's' there - we should be getting more than one. I'd only include burell in that package where we're trading with a prospects/young major league rich organisation. I think that way you maximise the value of each player in a trade is to make seperate trades for each if each player is sufficiently attractive. Although we perceive burell as lumbering damaged goods, the american league sees a decent dh, and should trade for him accordingly. If we're prepared to 'throw him into a deal' its reflecting on the phillies valuation on him and we will get less, simply because we effectively asked for less.

As for myer's value being low - the phillies organisation is not unique in looking past a players personal problems and seeing only the success they can bring to a club.

I don't think any other team sees damaged goods - but I *do* fear that they will try to take advantage of the phillies wanting to get rid of him, which is why we have to be patient and ask for a lot for him. The ownership have stuck with unpopular players before - think to yourself how long they've been happy to keep burrell when he drives most fans up the wall - and they should be prepared to show that they'll do the same with myers.

So your suggestion Eileen is to trade him regardless of what we get in return? I think that is much more disasterous. In fact, in a way you are rewarding Myers by sending him to a contending team and probably a place where he wont have to face the wrath of the fans. Why do him a favor and the Phils a disservice?

The Phils best trading ship right now is Tom Gordon. They should unload HIM perhaps with a "Burrell clause" in it. Half of the playoff contenders ould use a closer upgrade. Some desperately.
I am not against trading Myers, but his value right now has never been lower. They need to get him back, and winning, and hoping the fans don't crucify him, and then deal him this winter.

Will:

I agree that true playof contenders will ignore the character issues.

My point is; Some posters here tend to think that Beyers has some type of clean reputation before the wife beating incident, and that this was a one-off thing.

Look: Anyone wonder what provoked the public wife beating? (my sources say...) It was that Brett's wife caught him boffing a treat, AGAIN.

and then he beat her.

wheeee.

he *is* that much of an asshole, and it will be a shame to watch another shilling-type escape from the phils, but he will never, ever be able to pitch in this town again.

ever.

Burrell... ugh... mentor'd by Daulton in the minors... and has a reputation that is starting to be worrisome.

My thoughts echo "That Dude". I think Myers value increases in the offseason and I trade him then. Pitchers with great stuff and without injury history command great value. Myers should bring you prospects similar to what the Marlins got for Beckett.

And I like the idea of a "Burrell clause" when trading Myers, similar to Florida's "Lowell clause".

Billy Mac - that's where I disagree. Sox fans that I know are chuffed with the trade, because they feel they got lowell on the cheap and he's performed well. Do you think that burell's season so far this year has been the same as lowell's last year in terms of stats, rather than relative value to our team?

In defense of the "Trade Myers after the season" people ... Myers is still facing charges in Boston with no guarantee any of that will go away. In fact, Boston courts are very prickly on the matter.

Great thread, everyone. One of Beerleaguer's best yet.

I can't take credit for the Burrell idea. That was passed along in an email this morning.

Lowell has helped the BoSox this year. Lowell at $9M is not exactly cheap, and many did not forsee this type of comeback at 32. This was an astute or lucky move by Epstein. The similarlity I see is Florida made it known if you want Beckett you need to take Lowell and his $9M contract. I like the idea of using Myers as a way to unload Burrell and that is where I see the similarlity. I know Burrell has been productive in stretches and statistically is much better this season than Lowell was last season, but I see an aging player on the downside who will be difficult to move without taking on some salary or packaging with a desireable player like Myers.

As far as I am concerned, Myers can stand out there on the mound at CBP and take the abuse from the fans. He deserves it. Street justice, you might say. That may be the only punishment he faces since he might get off easy in court (counseling, community service, blah, blah, blah.)

That said, I think the Phillies, now embarrassed about their mishandling of the situation, may over-react and make a bad trade. In the end it will be another all-around bungle job by Phillies' management.

At least we can content ourselves with having won a great moral victory. Helps alleviate the pain of a 90-loss season this year, and probaby next year, too.


In my opinion you have to get a feel for how Myers will respond to this situation. Some players make mistake and can make them right and move on. Others think they are right and the world is wrong, in that case you have to move him. Everyone knows how talented he is, but someone has to make an "attitude" assessment on him and then based on that decide to keep him or move him. The problem is that the Phils don't have a real good history in this area. We have to trust that Gillick will do this and decide if trading him or keeping him will be best for all involved. From a baseball perspective the Phils have to look at what they can get back for him and if it equals what they will get from either a repentent Brett or a "T.O." Brett. Tough call to make.

>He deserves it. Street justice, you might say.

Actually, I'm looking forward to dishing some out to him... i can get tickets behind home-plate, within heckling distance.

my wife and i are going to wear wife-beater t-shirts with "Brett's Beater's" on the back, and heckle the **** out of him.

The lowell clause comparison is a good one. Lowell had a downturn in production in '05 and then traded. Burrell has had a downturn in production in '06 compared to '05, and may not look that bad to other GMs when packaged with Myers.

Burrell is 29, not exactly an "aging star" He still might have 3-4 productive seasons in him. Had Wade not given him a $50million contract ($37mill in the last 3 years)..... he'd be worth keeping in philly.

As far Myer's personal issues, we all know nothing's going to happen in the Boston courts. Probation, community service probably at worst. He's not going to jail, and any fine won't be big enough. Other teams know this, and will not back down. Jason Michaels hit a cop and somebody signed him.

So Myer's should be kept in the starting rotation for "street justice"? I guess you guys then would believe contrary to the opinion that the phils acted awkwardly and slow to the scandal. In fact, to you, they properly put him on the mound and let the Sox fans give it to him. Right?

my wife and i are going to wear wife-beater t-shirts with "Brett's Beater's" on the back, and heckle the **** out of him.

Good post, Joe. Nice to see you're taking the moral high-road.

What point does booing him serve? He got that in Boston and he'll probably get it in San Francisco and San Diego. He obviously cares about no one but himself, so booing does nothing except to make the boo-er feel better about him or herself.

No, I say the better punishment is to give him the silent treatment. Don't boo, don't cheer, don't even acknowledge his existence. If that doesn't give him the hint, I don;t know what would.

Matt:

First, i think the guy shouldnt appear in a phillies uniform again. he shouldnt appear in a baseball uniform again, but that aint gonna happen.

Secondly: I'm a Phillies fan: Its my birthright to Boo anyone and everyone up to and including santa clause, dont you oppress me! (tongue firmly in cheek)

maybe meyers should take a hint from michael jack, and come out onto the field in Groucho glasses.

Trading Myers is intriguing bit I am not as optimistic as Weitzel that the Phils will be able to get something decent in return given that so Myers' has so much baggage.

Myers' need to go out and have a good start or two before teams are going to get really intrigued. Only thing in Phils' favor is that the starting pitcher market is so bad right now that Myers would clearly be the best starting pitcher available (unless Zito or Willis somehow get moved).

Other huge caveat is that Burrell and Abreu both have no-trade clauses. Wade did backload these contracts but it was a calculated gamble that didn't work out. Giving a player like Burrell or Abreu a no-trade clause was just plain innane. Before Gillick can have any serious conversations about moving Burrell, Gillick needs to make sure that Burrell would agree to a trade. Given Burrell's low-key personality, this takes alot of teams (Boston, NY) out of the picture.

Another key issue is that I doubt the Phils' ownership is eat any more contracts. They already had to pay $22 million towards Thome's contract in order to move him. I imagine that most teams will want Phils to pay a portion of the large money that Burrell is owed.

While I would love the Phils to move Burrell and his large contract, I really want the Phils' to spend a portion of that money next year. I will be irate if the Phils just move players to reduce payroll to the $60-$65 million dollar range and put a "spunky" (i.e., crappy) team on the field next year.

Keep Myers, you would be crazy to trade him. His off field issues can be solved. He has not even been tried or convicted except by the media. There is always 2 sides of the story and with my experience in police work (4yrs) what happened with him may not be as bad as it is being made out to be.

The guy needs a chance!

See if his wife gives him a second chance. (She very likely had something to do with the fight as well - it usually takes 2)

Myers is entering his prime and could help the team alot

I vote to keep him

I wish a team could be as open as saying,"hey we're reducing payroll to $60 million for one year, we're gonna try to re-fill the farm teams get some prospects going, and then return to $90million the next year."

that would make me have some confidence that these guys have a long-term commitment to winning. I would support that team.

There is no way anything happens legally to Myers. If Boston takes this stuff so seriously his bail wouldn'tve been $200.00. Hell, they elect a guy to the senate who murdered a girl.

legally, myers isnt going to be in trouble. his wife and witnesses will be (were) compensated by the Front Office.

Yes, justice is different for the rich and famous.

Trade Myers? Sure, go right ahead, then trade Howard and Utley too.

Are you kidding me? Myers made a boneheaded mistake, and I believe he's paying a modest price for it now. Some boo's thrown his way would help towards punishment too, but trading him is ridiculous. The Phillies are desperate for starting pitching and now some of you are suggesting trading away our best pitcher. My personal opinion is no way in hell do you trade Myers!

Other teams would perceive Myers going on the block as a sign the Phils felt they must trade him. The offers would be similar to the offers the Phils received for Rolen & Schilling with the same end result. Does anyone honestly think Gillick could get fair value? Given both Gillick and Myers' track record?

Yes.

OK, that's one wrong. Anyone else?

OK, so does Myers' value drop the longer we hold onto him? Say he blows up again and it is a becomes a nightmare scenario once again. Then do you think we will get value for him? Teams will know we absolutely have to move him then. You can get value now in the hopes that this is a one time thing with him. I, however, do not think it will be a one time thing, and if you can get some kind of quality in return (not the Omar Daal's and Travis Lee's of the world), then it makes sense to do it.

Looking to the future, do you think he will even want to resign with Philly once he becomes eligable for big money? I doubt it after everything that has taken place this year. I doubt it even more so if the fans continually give him a dose of what he deserves anytime he pitches at Citizen's Bank Park.

Jon: The key word in your post is "if" There is ZERO evidence that the Phillies can get fair value in these type of "we must deal him" trades. Again, see Rolen, see Schilling. See Padilla.

Clout, you can't say that for sure either. Was Wade a bonehead? Of course, no one doubts that. I do have a little more faith in Gillick and until he shows me that he screws up a major trade, then I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

This is a completely different situation from Schilling and Rolen. Neither player would sign here. In the offseason, once the legal issues are resolved and largely forgotten (outside of Philly), Myers will command top prospects (similar to what Florida got for Beckett). Myers may yet turn into a great pitcher, but it won't happen in Philly. If the allegations are true, he must be traded.

this phils should always be open to trading anyone, if it improves the team short or long term. this business about trading myers now and never letting him pitch again because of this one incident, disturbing as it is, is ludicris (and not in the mildly interesting rapper kind of way). since when did sports become so serious that one event from one member of one franchise is a reflection on the entire city? while the crime he's charged with is without a doubt a serious one, it is in fact none of our business, really. to (a) make it our business as customers is one thing, to (b) run the guy out of town essentially for being a flawed human being (or even a jerk), i just think that's over the top. i love the point about teddy kennedy. what he did *as a public servent* was way more horrible than anything brett myers as a baseball player has ever done to his city, organization, resporters, family, or any of us. the indignation over this is becoming ridiculous. the phils became a joke because they did not take the situation seriously enough. in my eyes, they would be just as much of a joke if they absolve themselves of a homegrown product who, in time, turns around and rights himself.

Jon, you're right. None of us can predict the future. But the past favors my point of view.

That is a very extreme idea, because (like many of the people of just posted above)the phillies have very very weak pitching. I think our rotation rivals the Reds or Royals. While I think Myers isn't what the Phillies need for a number 1 starter and I think he could be a very usefull number 2 or 3 (if he is behind hamels.)
On the other hand, I like the point you make about useing him to force a Pat Burrel trade. Top pitching prospects are always handy.

In response to S & B's question, "who of you wanted to trade Myers before the domestic abuse charge?"

My hand is raised. I'll quote Mr. Goodman: "He doesn't have the constitution to be successful". Or at least, not nearly as successful as he could or should be. Everything Billy Wagner said yesterday was dead on, including the observation that Myers could be a number one, but "mentally he's a number four". Why do we want to go forward with this kind of player? Is he really worth it? Is he the one who's going to lead the Phillies to the promised land?

No. He isn't worth it. Abort, Retry, Delete.

In terms of trading Myers and getting equal value, it must be kept in mind that the Phillies do not have to trade Myers. They might want to, but they don't have to. So in that sense his value will not be diminished. If other clubs do not offer what Gillick feels is equal value, the Phillies can simply keep Myers.

Should they trade him? Yes, he has no future in Philly.

The other fact is that most teams do not need a Pat Burrell, so the only way you can move him is as part of a package with someone other teams really want: a young, cheap, starting pitcher with a lot of upside. Some teams will bite on that. After all, Burrell is not going to hurt you as DH, except in the pocketbook.

rsb, i don't remember a single instance during the last four months where you or anyone else on here even hinted at trading brett myers. up until the last month the phils were in playoff contention. so did you want to trade our best pitcher while we were above .500 and 2 behind the mets? or did you want to trade him after lieber/floyd were out and madson/lidle were getting ripped and myers was the only decent starter left on the team? i'm not buying.

myers has a future in philly as a pitcher.

I don't like him, and never have. I wouldn't necessarily have advocated his being traded earlier in the year when the team was going better, but it's become clear that Myers is not the pitcher the Phillies and everyone else wants to think of him as - and I am certain that at no time would I ever have been *against* trading him for this simple reason that I've found him difficult to root for despite his abilities. So you could say it's somewhat personal, but those personal reasons now have a legitimate basis: heads succeed in this game, not arms.

P.S. Myers probably does have a future in Philly as a future, but that's only because the team residing in Philly has no clue. Character means nothing to the people running this organization, which speaks very poorly of their judgment.

The one's of you that have forgotton that in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. Brett Myers has worked hard and proven to be a top flight young person,and Phillies top pitcher. There are always 3 sides to a story,yours mine and the truth.I vote that we see what the truth is before we crucify him further. The media is no place to get the information, they have a habit of turning things around and sensationalizing to sell copy.. Think about it.....you know its true. Brett is talented ,young and inexpensive,with a lot of upside, I think some of the fan's should be traded...Give Brett his day, I'm sure everything will come out.

i'd turn in my season tickets if they traded their best pitcher and their best right handed hitter. that's not a rebuild, that's a firesale. i'm tired of all this trade burrell talk. if wade didn't give him that huge contract he'd still be in arbitration be making half the money and people would love him. i don't blam pat for that. raise your hand if you want aaron rowand to be your best right handed hitter. we've spent 5 years developing myers, one stupid drunk mistake should not mean trading him for someone elses gavin floyd. if myers and burrell go every veteran should go to - we should just turn in to the marlins.

Although some would believe that heckling him with booing would be his just punishment. I personally think an empty, almost desolate stadium would really hit home with the team. He won't get much of a punishment with the courts. I think with the poor way this whole thing has been handled that the Phillies would be best served to make a trade. I don't think that the fans will accept him here at all. His career here is finished. I don't think local women's advocate groups are going to forget either. I would love to see a complete boycott of the first game he pitches in Philadelphia. That would send a strong statement to the organization.

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