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Monday, July 10, 2006

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I'm not sure he hit any the other way???

If he did, I don't remember seeing it.

Allow me to scoop the writers with this line you're sure to read tomorrow: One can only hope that Howard has better fortune than Abreu after his derby win. After hitting 41 homers at last year's derby, Abreu has hit just 14 homers in the Phillies last 162 games.

What a pleasure to watch Ryan Howard win this thing...WAY TO GO RYAN - The King of Swing :-)

Watching Howard hit those HRs was great but Bill Giles had to open his big mouth. Can't believe that the Phils finally generated some positive PR and Giles made those ridiculous comments including Myers' domestic abuse charge. What an imbecile.

I guarantee the Weitzel's earlier post this season about Gillick leaving this team will come true. How can Gillick work for such an imbecile as Bill Giles? Ugh.

Isn't it absolutely amazing? I mean, I want Howard to have his moment here. He deserves it and thensome. As he said, "That'll give Philly something to cheer about." If only, Ryan.

I don't know what kind of publicity the Giles interview will receive. It ought to receive a lot. That would effectively steal Howard's thunder. That alone is a digraceful shame. But then there is the content of the interview, which goes leaps and bounds beyond a mere disgraceful shame. If it appeared the Phillies had botched the handling of the Myers situation before - well, how does it look now? Giles is claiming the organization believes - scratch that, *knows* - that Myers is innocent. Well, what of it? Have lawyers completely sealed everyone's lips while Brett Myers' reputation goes up in flames? Is *that* a good way to be handling this, if in fact what we've been led to believe as true all along, is not? When the hell is somebody going to properly address this, in that case? Are we supposed to be waiting until David Montgomery gets his latest statement pasted together and proofread, until the proper time for a formal press conference can be agreed upon? Either way, Giles' words are totally, totally stupid. I hope he is made to pay for them. To me, this makes an already outrageous situation ten times worse.

Anyone who reads this column and is a Phils' fan has to read Bill Giles' comments in the Philly Inquirer.

I am disgusted and disappointed by most of his comments. Two of Giles' comments in particular forecast next season,

Q: Are you troubled by the accusations that ownership group doesn't care about winning?

A: "I've been concerned about it forever, because all they [owners] care about is winning. Our ownership group is not in the game to make money. They're in it not to lose money, but we put an awful lot of money in the last few years - $200 million for the ballpark, $95 million the last two or three years in the payroll."

Q: Will payroll next season remain in the same range as it has in the past?

A: "It'll be in that range."

This basically means the Phils' ownership will absolutely not eat any money to trade anyone. Additionally, the Phils' payroll is going back down to $60-$65 million range next year. Anyone who thinks tbe Phils' are going to be big spenders this offseason is dreaming.

You can have the homerun derby, we'll keep the NL East. Enjoy your second half losers...

The Phillies have ownership?

The best part of last night, other than seeing some *young* (23, 23, etc.) studs hit, was how Howard gathered himself after missing the first four pitches of the first round.

"Timeout," he said. He took a breath, and it was on.

Good for him. But am I the only one around here who continues to cringe when Abreu is mentioned as a superstar on the ESPN?

Haven't read Giles' interview yet, but I must say Howard's performance is something I'll remember about this season when the rest has been suppressed. The fact that he beat out a Met for the crown makes it all that much sweeter.

Now I'll go back to rooting for the Phillies to lose through the 31st...

Besides approving dumb contracts like Burrell's and Abreu's..... I don't see how one can blame the management. They HAVE given us an awesome new ballpark. They HAVE spent ~90million the past 4 years, which should be enough to win.

And while the payroll may drop next year, I don't see how you can read Giles' comments and conclude that it is definitely. The "same range" seems to imply a drop of no more than 10million. i don't know how payroll could drop more than that and still be considered in the same range.

MG, RSB, Lisa, maybe you can explain the bad moves the owners have made in detail?

Sorry, I meant how one can blame the ownership, not the management

It's hard to point at specific errors of ownership because that's the nature of ownership. You have the GM set up as the "head baseball guy" to make the decisions and to take the flak when things don't go well. Ownership gets off scot-free. Or that's the way it's supposed to work, anyway, but many former employees of the Phillies under the current ownership have gone on the record saying that the GM's don't have the power they should have in this organization, and that effectively certain baseball decisions are made by the marketing department (i.e. not trading a guy because he's been heavily promoted by the organization). So, if the ownership is, in fact, making baseball decisions, they should be held just as accountable as the GM(s). Add to that the fact that they seem intent on promoting from within whenever possible. Why would you look first to promote from within a losing organization?

Of course, as fans we don't have an inside look at the workings of the team. But when owners give interviews like this, it just makes it clear that this ownership is completely out of touch. The fans really still like us, it's just a few crazies and talk-show hosts, etc. They say they care about winning, but they're content to try the same losing strategies over and over again, and then cover their ears when people naturally get fed up.

This whole article needs posted!! I have never read so much asinine and contradicting BS from one individual of the Phillies!! Ever!! So here it is from http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/15009380.htm

Giles shares his Phils feelings

By Todd Zolecki
Inquirer Staff Writer

PITTSBURGH - The Phillies have been bloodied and beaten on the field, and intensely criticized off it.

The starting pitching and hitting have been awful. Manager Charlie Manuel is feeling the heat. General manager Pat Gillick can't put his stamp on the team because of inflated contracts and otherwise unmovable talent. It is a common feeling that the organization botched its handling of pitcher Brett Myers' arrest, and it remains to be seen how it will handle his return this weekend in San Francisco.

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Then there is ownership, which continues to be condemned publicly for the perception that it is more concerned about profit than winning.

Phillies president and part owner David Montgomery is the spokesman for ownership. He has complete management authority over the organization. But the ownership includes limited partners. Bill Giles, of Giles Limited Partnership, may be the best known of a group that includes Claire S. Betz; Tri-Play Associates (brothers Alexander K. Buck, J. Mahlon Buck Jr. and William C. Buck); and Double Play Inc. (chairman John S. Middleton). Being a Phillies limited partner means you stay in the background and keep quiet.

But the 71-year-old Giles, in Pittsburgh as honorary National League president for the All-Star Game, spoke openly and candidly with reporters yesterday about the beleaguered franchise. Giles, who owns about 15 percent of the Phillies, said fans who want this ownership group to sell the team should not hold their breath:

Question: Are you aware ownership is taking a beating?

A: I know that. The best thing about the last two weeks was I was in Italy, so I didn't get into that [Myers] mess. I got the details [Sunday] when I talked to David... . When David told me what really happened, it's really kind of a disappointment for the publicity of it.

Q: What did you hear?

A: I don't know that I'm privileged to say. I'm not the spokesman for the Phillies. I do know what really happened was a lot less than what the public thinks happened and that's the sad part because some bystander saw something that really didn't happen. Brett was trying to help his wife.

Q: What do you mean?

A: "I can't say. I just don't know what Dave wants me to say."

Q: But witnesses saw it.

A: One of our employees [marketing manager Debbie Nocito] saw the whole thing. She said, "He did not hit her at all, and he didn't grab her hair or anything." So all the reports were untrue, from what I understand.

Q: What's your take on the first half?

A: Not good. We're all disappointed. We haven't been hitting well in the clutch and our pitching's been kind of messed up all year.

Q: There's talk the team will be dismantled next month. What do you think?

A: I think Pat is - I talked to Dave yesterday - I think he's going to be doing a lot of talking and listening over the next three weeks. Anything we can do to get better for the future as well as right now is going to be done. I think you're going to see some moves, certainly, between now and next year. Whether we have enough to offer to get what we're looking for - we need pitching, and third base and catching are issues.

Q: What about the manager?

A: No comment on that. That's not my role anymore.

Q: Larry Bowa and Billy Wagner spoke out recently saying the nucleus needs to be broken up after not winning under three managers.

A: "Despite what people think, our ownership group, particularly me, is in this business to win games. We're not doing very well this year and we haven't gotten to the postseason since 1993, so there's going to be a lot that's going to be tried to be done and there's going to be a lot of effort being made by Gillick and his team of people to get us back to where we want to be, and we're not there now. That's pretty obvious."

Q: Are you troubled by the accusations that the ownership group doesn't care about winning?

A: I've been concerned about it forever, because all they [owners] care about is winning. Our ownership group is not in the game to make money. They're in it not to lose money, but we put an awful lot of money in the last few years - $200 million for the ballpark, $95 million the last two or three years in the payroll.

Q: What do you say to people who constantly say, "Sell the team?"

A: I don't think our team will be sold in my lifetime, and I hope I live a long time.

Q: Are you allowed to sell in the short term because of the stadium deal?

A: That time is over with.

Q: So you can sell?

A: Yeah, but we're not going to sell. You can bet on that.

Q: What if someone like Mark Cuban would make a crazy offer?

A: It doesn't make any difference what price.

Q: Why?

A: "Because our people love owning the Phillies and they're not in it for money. They don't need money. They love the Phillies, and that's the way it's going to be, in my judgment."

Q: But if someone with more money bought the team, could it have a better chance of winning?

A: It's not any of the owners' fault that some of our star players are not having very good years and [Jon] Lieber is not doing what he did last year and our bullpen is not quite as good. [Tom] Gordon's been great, but the seventh and eighth innings have been a little difficult sometimes.

Q: David is the spokesperson, but why are the other partners silent?

A: That's the way it should be, in my opinion. I don't think any partnership, whether it be baseball or whatever... the shoe business, you should have one spokesman for the ownership. I used to be it, and now Dave is.

Q: You were once asked to be accountable and removed from team president. Do you foresee the day it happens again?

A: I think any time you have an organization, whoever is leading it, his job is always in jeopardy. But I know for a fact that everybody thinks Dave Montgomery is a brilliant guy and an honest man, so I don't see anything ever being talked about as it relates to the CEO of the Phillies.

Q: Do you think it's 100 percent certain that Montgomery will be team president next year?

A:Now, I only own a little piece of the team, but I know the owners think Dave Montgomery is sensational.

Q: As a baseball man?

A: As everything. He's not the one that evaluates player talent. That's Pat Gillick.

Q: But he called the shots with [former general manager Ed] Wade.

A: On player talent? No way. No way. He didn't sign anybody. He approves budgets. Dave Montgomery never makes a deal, nor does he suggest a deal. He approves economics. That's all he does.

Q: Do the owners blame the perception of the ownership on the media or the fans being misguided?

A: The ownership group's main goal is to win. Win a World Series. Particularly, two of them say in every meeting, "Gosh darn it, I want to win a World Series." I mean, that's what it's all about. We haven't done very well doing it, but that's the goal.

Q: Who are the two?

A: I can't tell you.

Q: Are you one of them?

A: Of course.

Q: Is the guy [from the Middleton family] who pushed you out the other one?

A: No comment.

Q: Are you embarrassed to be an owner right now?

A:I'm never embarrassed. I'm proud to be a Phillies owner. It's not as much fun. When I go around town when the Phillies are doing well, everybody yells at me, "Hey, our Phillies are doing great." Now when I walk in downtown Philadelphia they say, "What's wrong with your [expletive] team?" It's their team when we're winning, my team when we're losing. (chuckles)

Q: There is the perception that the owners are socialites with your parasols sipping Hot Toddies and not really giving a [hoot] about anything.

A: I tell you, our ownership group... they're just like I am. When we get up in the morning after losing three in a row and you don't really want to read the paper and be reminded that you lost three in a row, they all feel that way. People that own ball clubs really don't buy ball clubs to make money. They buy it to compete and to enjoy the victories. When you don't win, it's painful.

Q: Does it matter to you that the public is so down on this team?

A: I don't know that that's true. Too many people believe the talk shows are the pulse of the public, and I don't happen to believe that at all. There are crazy people that call in and the announcers create a perception, but I don't believe it. I just don't think the public... I know so many people that are dyed-in-the-wool Phillies fans who love the team - win, lose or draw.

Q: Does the negativity from talk radio and maybe the fan base in general hurt?

A: I think negative talk shows are negative to the performance of all things. I really do. I really feel that way. Somebody said since Liberty Place One and Two have gone above William Penn's hat that nobody has won a championship in Philadelphia. I think talk shows are an issue with some of the players. The players listen to it and hear about it. I don't think it's a positive influence on winning any game, whether it be hockey or basketball or baseball or whatever.

Q: Is the organization paying now for past mistakes of giving too many long-term contracts and no-trade clauses?

A: You know, the greatest thing you can say about baseball is you never know. We made some [trade] offers that I can't tell you about last year for Ryan Howard. We offered him, and if the team had accepted that, we would have been a lot worse off, I'll tell you that. Sometimes the best deals are the ones you don't make.

Q: But you have a $50 million leftfielder [Pat Burrell] who is virtually untradable, plus it'll be tough to trade Bobby Abreu. You have guys like David Bell and Mike Lieberthal.

A: Pat [Gillick] is in a tough bind, and he has been since he's gotten here because we have a lot of no-trade contracts and we have a lot of high-payroll guys that don't have great value. That's the issue. Pat, or whoever the general manager would be, has a great challenge over the next few months."

Q: Were the Phillies too liberal with no-trade clauses?

A: "I'm not going to get into that."

Q: Will the rebuilding take a few years?

A: "Nah, in this day and age... the one good thing about all the new rules we've put in is there's parity."

Q:Was Burrell's $50 million contract a mistake?

A: "I'm not going to get into that. At the time, everybody in Major League Baseball thought it was a great deal. If you took the numbers that he had the year after we gave him that money, he would have gotten more money theoretically. He's been disappointing this year. I don't know how much his foot is bothering him."

Q: Will payroll next season remain in the same range as it has in the past?

A: "It'll be in that range."

Q: Are you expecting to lose money this year?

A: "We're going to be alright."

Q: With the whole Myers situation, can he make it in this town now or do you have to look into moving him?

A: "That's up to Pat and David."

Q: But you know this town inside out; can he make it in Philadelphia?

A: "I think we'll just have to play that one out. I think we just have to see what happens. It's really a shame that the perception of what happened is that he slugged her and pulled her hair. That's not true at all."

Q: Can this team be contenders next year?

A: "In this day and age, you can go from last place to first place easily in a year. Take the Cincinnati Reds. They're basically the same team. They've just added some pitchers. And they're very much in contention to win their division. I don't think there will be any problem, if we're fortunate enough to get the right players, to compete soon."

What was it, 9 or 10 people who called 911 that night in Boston?? Was Brett Myers arrested or not?? He needs to answer these now!! Was he assulting her or not?? What a complete asinine fool!! Did it happen or not?? Way to put gasoline on the fire!! This needs addressed before we can even kill him over the comments that Monty wasn't involved with player decisions!! Was he down in Virginia talking with Wagner or not?? What a effin' jackass!!

"Pat [Gillick] is in a tough bind, and he has been since he's gotten here because we have a lot of no-trade contracts and we have a lot of high-payroll guys that don't have great value. That's the issue. Pat, OR WHOEVER THE GENERAL MANAGER WOULD BE, has a great challenge over the next few months."

That sentence makes it look like Gillick is a short timer. I think that's a Freudian slip that is significant.

The main points of the interview are that: 1.) the owners aren't selling the team; 2.) the Myers situation may not be as bad as it appears; 3.) he admits that "we need pitching, and third base and catching are issues" (meaning he's aware of the "black hole".); and 4.) he's aware that "we have a lot of no-trade contracts and we have a lot of high-payroll guys that don't have great value" (meaning Bell, Burrell, Abreu, Leiber et al).

Thanks to Jon for posting the whole interview. It was good. I think Giles was quite candid. I'm sure he'll get a tongue lashing at the next ownership tea and crumpets meeting for being so open.

On the HR derby last night, I really enjoyed Ryan Howard. I had never heard him speak before. He is well spoken individual and he seems like a nice guy. The Phillies should keep him. I was proud to be a Phillies fan last night. It will be interesting to see if the Phillies can contribute to a NL victory tonight. I was a mere boy when the Phillies' Johnny Callison hit the game winner in 1964. That was the high point of my All Star game watching.

That is an interesting aside that escaped my attention the first time I read through the sickening interview. Lord only knows what's really going on behind the curtains. Despite Giles' (ill-advised) candidness, there's no way any of us can possibly know what anyone in the organization, other than poor old Charlie Manuel, is thinking.

Sheridan again had the best response to the interview this morning. He is the best columnist in Philadelphia media, bar none. Conlin is still sharp, but not nearly as timely. I still believe Giles' comments on Myers need to be addressed in a more specific and investigative light. The implications of his words are staggering.

Giles contradicted himself in the interview about Myers. (I'm not gonna comment, he's innocent, he hit her, etc...) Whatever the story - I do not know. Most likely the MEDIA has blown this out of porportion - they usually do. The MEDIA tends to go on hearsay way too often. Lets see how Myer's wife responds to this. These domestic disputes are fixable, they are forgivable, and most times are not very serious.

I'll wait and see before passing judgement and demanding his trade.

Congrats to Ryan, nice to see.

Giles is a jackass, pure and simple.

Besides the Myer's comment, I was actually encouraged by his answers. We'll find out Myer's side in August at his hearing (he did plead not guilty after all). And I have no doubt that the media may have exaggerated statements of the eye witnesses, although not to the extent that Giles has been led to believe.

All in all, it seemed that at least Giles has winning high on his priority list and he realizes the mistakes of the past.

But yeah, I got the impression Gillick wasn't gonna be a long time here.

Oh and lake fred, Bell's contract is 4.5million and he's done after this year. So don't include him in your list.

All Giles had to say about Myers is either "no comment" or a scripted PR response. That easy and there is no story here. How could Giles be so stupid as to make those quote knowing they would be put in print and catch alot of attention?

Most likely the MEDIA has blown this out of porportion - they usually do.

That makes sense. Because Giles contradicts himself in the interview concerning Myers, clearly something is wrong not with Giles but with the MEDIA. The same way something is wrong not with the Phillies organization, no, but with the MEDIA blowing everything out of proportion. Sure they're 40-47, but that's really a positive thing if you don't allow yourself to be jaded by that crazy MEDIA.

Look, Myers is innocent until proven guilty. But that's for the courts to decide. Unless Giles has an overwhelming amount of evidence that Myers was somehow framed by all of these people and his wife, it's irresponsible for Giles to go around asserting Myers' innocence, especially when Myers doesn't even do so himself! And for the record, the word of one of your employees versus the aforementioned slew of witnesses is not overwhelming evidence to any sane person. Assuming Giles isn't insane, he can only be extremely biased, to the point where he's so concerned with the welfare of Myers that the welfare of Myers' wife has barely entered into his mind. That's what he's demonstrating by defending Myers this way, and that's why people are right to be pissed.

Besides all the baseball reasons, of course.

People who say the media "always blow things out of proportion" forget a simple rule of thumb: attribution.

Reporters didn't make up eyewitness accounts. They quoted them from the police reports.

The initial reports were very, very damning.

As far as the ownership being to blame by giving too much power to marketing..... that may be true. And it may run contradictory to the proven baseball theorem alittle too often.

Not to defend them, but maybe just to remind some of the financial situation of this team. This isn't new york, this isn't boston and this isn't even LA or Chicago. This is philadelphia. Philadelphia is not a major baseball market right now, we're at best an upper-middle market. This ownership may honestly want to win, but if you invested millions of dollars into something, you also don't want to see it lose money. This ownership feels it needs its highly marketable players in order to fill seats and create revenue.

Money comes first for every owner in every sport. In the above major markets, money is assured, therefore more energy can be spent on winning. From the posts here on the board, it seems like many people think the phils ownership is in it to make money, and then to win. To me it seems like it might be that they're in it to not lose money, and then to win. There's a huge difference.

Thanks Will. I didn't know Bell was almost up. If he's not a big contract guy and he's so bad, why do they play him so much?

First off, I want to make sure it's known that I dont think Giles was right...but...

JZ - Every reporter knows how to spin a quote to make it as impressive as possible. You start in a middle of a quote, or the middle of a sentence. You cut out whole sections of a sentence and then tie the begining and end with "...." The result can change the whole context or feeling of the sentence. It makes the story more exciting, which makes you a "better" writer.

If you want to see a pro example just watch any Michael Moore film, he does the same thing on film that some reporters do on paper.

They're not lying, but they're not exactly telling the truth either.

Fred - I have no idea why they play him. Here's a guess though.... you buy a $300 vacuum. But it doesn't work well but not bad enough to justify throwing away the $300. You can't return it. So you use it, getting frustrated enough sometimes to use your neighbor's $50 vaccuum (Nunez). It's just as bad, but at least you don't have to look at the waste of money as much.

Lieber's like a $1000 vaccuum. And lieberthal..... wow.

Will, I disagree that Philadelphia is not a major baseball market. Why isn't it, exactly? It is the sixth-largest city in the country and is four times the size of Boston. You sound like an apologist for Phillies ownership, which isn't going to win many sympathies on this site or anywhere else.

As for the person who declares that we can't believe what the evil media reports, thank you Zach for clarifying that these were police and eyewitness reports we're going on, independent of the media. It does appear, based on Giles' comments, that management is choosing to believe the allegations are overblown and that Myers was "trying to help". Which means, in a nutshell, that Myers isn't going anywhere - unless he combusts on the mound in the second half and fans prove to be unforgiving. I have a feeling, however, that after the first start back, it's not going to be a problem for him.

Just as there have been so many occasions this season when it seems a low point has been reached - this feels like an all-time low today with respect to my abject disgust for the management of the Phillies.

This ownership may honestly want to win, but if you invested millions of dollars into something, you also don't want to see it lose money. This ownership feels it needs its highly marketable players in order to fill seats and create revenue.

Then really you're making the case that the management doesn't understand Philly fans. We want to win. That's it. They can have marketable players out the wazoo, but if they're not winning, seat sales will continue to decline. As far as I'm concerned, let management be in it purely for the money, provided of course they don't sell our team to another city. But they need to realize that in this town, that means winning. Until they realize that and start taking serious steps to, well, realize that, they'll be losing games and money both, like they are now.

taking quotes out of context? are you on ******* crack?
---
``He was dragging her by the hair and slapping her across the face," Knight said. ``She was yelling, `I'm not going to let you do this to me anymore.' "

``He had her on the ground," Knight said. ``He was trying to get her to go, and she was resisting. She curled up and sat on the ground. He was pulling her, her shirt was up around her neck. . . . He could have cared less that we were there."

One of her friends, Sly Egidio, 30, of East Boston, said Myers appeared to pull his wife ``out of her shoes" before hitting her.

``I watched him just haul off and smack her in the face," Egidio said. ``She said: `I'm tired of this. I'm all done.' "

Egidio said Kim Myers was on the ground crying when her husband pulled her up by her hair.

``This was violent," Egidio said. ``This was wrong. Even if it was a Red Sox [player], I would have done something. And I love the Red Sox." Egidio works for Boston Baseball magazine, distributing it at Fenway.
--------------

tell me, how on earth can you think that this account was twisted by "the media"?

Ay-Oh! Settle down in here! I'm trying to take blogging nap through the all-star game!

Weitzel, sorry for the profanity, but some of your posters are being assinine in their defense of myers.

Hey Will, I liked the vacuum cleaner analogy for baseball players. I get the subliminal message....all the players compared to vacuum cleaners are like the job that vacuum cleaners perform...they all suck.

It is totally appropriate to be up in arms at Giles' comments, let alone those who want to say it's the "media's" propensity for distortion which should cause us to reserve judgment. I am so outraged at what Bill Giles said, I cannot begin to articulate it. I know I just keep saying the same thing in slightly different ways. I guess I won't be satisfied until everyone reacts in the way Joe and Jon have. This is an indefensible matter, and Giles should be put through the wringer on this one. I don't even care about what he said about the baseball-related subjects, which is appalling in itself. Giles, and whomever he speaks for in the Phillies organization with this unfounded belief that Myers did nothing wrong, is way, way, *way* out of line here. I mean, it cannot be overstated.

I see the great flim-flam man Bill Giles has spoken. This is one of his old tricks he uses to divert attention from problems. He once said he likes to pop off to a reporter now and then for something to talk about. Then it ends. He wont speak anymore while others get embroiled in what he said. At 71, the old con man still remembers the tricks.

What was really special about Howard's performance was the way he seemed to still have something in the tank at the end.

Bonnie Bernstein needed to do her interview with David Wright from the seat of her pants because he was so winded after putting up a mean 4 HRs in the final round. Granted he posted a much better number than Howard at the beginning, but as we just saw from Italy in the World Cup, it's important to be at the top of your game when it counts.

And Howard looked like he was enjoying himself. He had his son kiss his bat before the final round. We need more players with attitudes like Howard's and Utley's. I would probably be willing to give this team the benefit of the doubt if they had more guys with that outlook on the game.

i don't want to get too into this "media" converation but it is possible there were other witnesses who saw something less violent. only two were cited. it's also possible the witnesses were just as out of it as myers was (they too were at a bar at 2am). ask any cop, prosecutor or judge and they will tell you that eye witness testimony isn't all it's claimed to be.

and let me add - giles is definately a moron for speaking his mind. he doesn't know what happened either.

RSB: I was making the case that this wasn't a major baseball market, not that it isn't a major city. Football has eclipsed baseball as the city's major sports obsession. Does it have the potential to be a major market? yes. Is it? The attendance and merchandise sales say no. Boston fans show up in droves throughout the country, phils get a decent showing in some places. I went to school in Maine and I know that most, if not all of the boston fans would have traded both superbowls for the sox to win a World Series in 2004. I don't think we can say that for most phils fans.

zach - I was making the case that most fans don't understand the phils ownership, or rather, they don't even try. Your idea that they need to spend money to make it, is correct in my opinion. Most of these owners aren't stupid, and they probably know it's correct too (unless they got their money the old-fashion way - inheritance).

The problem is lack of information. We don't know how much they're making, we can only guess, and we miss things like interest on loans or insurance policy payments because they are beyond guesstimation. It is possible that they, as businessmen, took a calculated risk and expanded the payroll above revenue for a few years in the hopes that the success of the team would increase revenues to meet and exceed payroll, thus making more money. The ownership group isn't blind, they can see that a world series brought sell-outs to the white sox and a 100% increase in merchandise sales.

joe - you wanted to know how it could be twisted? well here you go. Just remember that I don't think it was twisted, but if you're going to reject the possibility out of hand, I have to call you on it.

First of all the "..." anything could go in there, including qualifying statements for the previous and next sentences that would take the edge off the accusations.

Secondly, the placement of the "Egidio said" or "Knight said" in the article could act as the "..." in previous sentences.

Finally, the article breaks out of quotes entirely, summarizing a quote, which may take out qualifying statements.

My other points were made by tim above.

Once again I dont think that this was twisted by the media, but to say it wasn't distorted at all is just as much a stretch. Don't forget the "whisper down the alley game" i'm sure we've all played. We're hearing it from somebody who saw something from some distance, who then told a reporter, who tried to write it down as best they could describe it (probably in shorthand) then wrote it out in an article which was edited to fit and then printed.

will,

you are morally bankrupt.

thanks,

-joe.

I'm not just talking about the simple act of spending money. I obviously haven't seen their balance sheets, but what I know of their expenditures tells me that they're interested in signing big name stars for long-term deals - in other words, marketable players - rather than investing in a better farm system or, I don't know, more competent baseball people. Who knows, it could just be that they know they need to win, but they don't have enough leadership within the organization to really get the ball rolling. All I know is something is wrong.

Just remember that I don't think it was twisted, but if you're going to reject the possibility out of hand, I have to call you on it.

I think he just called himself on it.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/15014873.htm

Wow. This team is beyond f*cked.

JZ, who hates blanket statements and won't get into a Journalism 101 argument with Will over there.

Will, Philadelphia isn't a major baseball market?

Do you suppose the fact that football is more popular in the region has anything at all to do with the fact that the Phillies have one postseason appearance in the past twenty-three years? Is that just a total coincidence to you?

And yet baseball *is* still enormously popular in Philly. The Phillies are infuriating and people are forever down on them, but an awful lot of people continue to care passionately about them. There is no case that can be made that Philadelphia is any less rabidly baseball-oriented than any city in the country, including Boston. (Please keep in mind that the Red Sox have had *five* seasons without a winning record since 1967.)

When the team does well, it draws three million. When it doesn't do well, it draws around two million. That is a big baseball market, no matter how you slice it.

will,

you are morally bankrupt.

thanks,

-joe.

morally bankrupt? that makes no sense joe. I deplore myers actions and don't doubt the truth to the story told. I thought I made that clear. Have you ever watched the same story on CNN and then FoxNews?

Things get spun and distorted, get used to it. To say it didn't happen this time, simply because you don't think so, is inane.

joe and zach,

feel free to debate my contentions in my posts, but I ask you to not insult my character. I'm sorry I called you inane in my last post. If you want to say I'm wrong, fine. Don't make it personal. I'm sorry if I inadvertantly made it personal by replying directly. I'll try to do better at that.

-Will

I tend to agree with Will. My daughter is a journalism major at LSU and we discuss news articles a lot. Many article mislead not so much by what they report, but by what they leave out. Poor reporting and writing is rampant.

I believe that the truth in the Myers debacle is probably closer to the Boston news media than to Bill Giles sugar coating, but I also believe that the Boston news story is incomplete and that mitigating information was missing from their story. It happens all the time.

Couple comments. Jason, you're right, pitching is the one bright spot in the Phillies minors. Hamels projects as a legit ace, Mathieson as a back of rotation guy and Gonzalez as somewhere in between. Add Madson and Floyd, both young enough to improve, and there is hope.
On the issue of David Bell, this answer is simple: The Phillies have NO ONE better. Not in the minors, not anywhere. No one even close to being as good as Bell is at 3B, as bad as he is. You can't replace someone with no one. They made a feeble attempt to upgrade by bringing in Alex Gonzalez and Nunez, but Gonzo quit and Nunez reverted back to his awful pre-2005 form.

Sometimes Beerleaguer is a hoot! Lake Fred writes "Many article mislead not so much by what they report, but by what they leave out. Poor reporting and writing is rampant" and "I also believe that the Boston news story is incomplete and that mitigating information was missing from their story. It happens all the time."
How does Lake Fred know this? His daughter is a journalism student at LSU!!!!

Now Clout that's not nice. I'm not stupid, neither is my daughter. There's nothing wrong with LSU. I know that Randy Newman poked fun at LSU in a song, but the reality is that LSU is a fine University. I have a BA from Stockton in Pomona, NJ and an MBA from Tulane. I know that news articles are poorly written from over 4O years of reading newspapers. Newspaper articles are often frustrating because they leave out crucial bits of information that the reader needs.

A perfect example of this is the Phillies. Do we know all there is to know about the Phillies? No, we don't. Do the reporters know more than what they write? Sure they do. They leave out what they don't think is newsworthy, or what they failed to think is important.

I knew one of the sports beat reporters down here in New Orleans and I know stories that never made the paper generally to protect people's reputation. I'm sure the Myers story would have been reported differently if it had happened in Philly and was reported by Philly writers.

My discussions with my daughter aren't stupid. They are conversation based on articles we both read in the paper. We discuss how they try to slant the news to get us to think a certain way. I don't appreciate you making fun of us.

Lake Fred: Let me be perfectly clear. I'm not making fun of LSU. It's a fine school. I'm not calling you or your daughter stupid. I AM calling these statements stupid: "Many article mislead not so much by what they report, but by what they leave out. Poor reporting and writing is rampant" and "I also believe that the Boston news story is incomplete and that mitigating information was missing from their story. It happens all the time."
You have zero evidence to support either of these blanket statements. Which makes them stupid.

Clout, I do have evidence for these statements to support that they are not stupid.

The first statement: "Many articles mislead not so much by what they report, but by what they leave out. Poor reporting and writing is rampant" is self evident. This statement is my OPINION. You may disagree, but it is not a stupid opinion. You must surely have read articles in the paper and asked yourself about missing facts of the "Who? Why? When? Where? What?" variety.

The second statement "I also believe that the Boston news story is incomplete and that mitigating information was missing from their story. It happens all the time." is also my OPINION. The clue to this is my phrase "I also believe". Part of the evidence to base this opinion is the Giles interview. You may disagree with him, but he does cite a named witness (Debbie Nocito)that disputes the Boston report. That causes me to not want to take the Boston reports as being 100% accurate.

There's a commonly held maxim that states: "You can't believe everything that you read in the paper." I firmly agree with that. If you believe everything you read in the paper, then you haven't been around long enough to realize that the papers make mistakes or try to spin facts in one way or the other to persuade you to think in a certain way. Do you believe everything a politician tells you? Well, I don't believe everything I read in the paper. I believe about 98% of it, but there's 2% that is usually wrong or misleading.

Clout, I generally enjoy reading your comments. I think these latest comments have caused a lively discussion that probably only you and I are reading, but it is fun. I do appreciate that you enjoyed reading my comments that you thought were so studid that they were fun to you. Let's enjoy each other's comments. Let's hope these Phillies get better. Following them right now is no fun, its painful.

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