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Thursday, June 29, 2006


Gotta love BeerLeaguer...Phillies absolutely suck, yet people still come here to chat.

As bad as things are right now, I'm hoping the rest of the season will prove to be interesting. By interesting I mean trading off baggage like Abreu, Burrell, Lieber, Lieberthal, Bell, Cormier, Rhodes, and watching young guys continue to play hard (Utley, Howard, Victorino). I'm interested to see what types of players we get in return for some of our proven loser veterans, I just hope the new crew is more fun to watch. Hamels and Mathieson are getting their lumps, but hopefully they can live and learn (unlike Floyd). Also hoping Manuel gets axed, and not just because of the recent losing woes, but because as I've been stating all along...the man is a baseball moron!

David Dellucci should bring us something come trade deadline. His numbers are respectable considering his playing time. He's done exactly what he's needed to for the Phillies. He's our only decent pinch-hitter, even Victorino strugles in a pinch.

I wonder if David Bell had the brass balls to complain to Manuel tonight about not starting. He ought to be thanking any and all possible deities that he's starting anywhere in the big leagues with the kind of production he offers.

The David Bell situation is indicative of what the Phillies have been over the past 4 seasons that he's graced the field. Brought in for his veteran playoff leadership, sure up the defense, produce respectable numbers from hot corner...but he's offered nothing of the sort. I hate his constant popping up to infielders or grounding into double plays. I hate his gay hop when he fields balls, I hate that he never gets in front of a ball...always oleyin' it, I also hate his lollipop arm...can't stand him! Did you ever notice that when he runs it looks like he's running in place, completely upright.

*Game Note- this ump is horrible tonight, he's literally calling pitches 8-12 inches off the plate...damn shame.

"this ump is horrible tonight..."

... and as usual, the Phils can't look past it. Bobby grounds weakly into a double play after arguing balls and strikes. That's 1/13.5 of their outs wasted because of Bobby's fit.

What's the matter with this team? Do they need a shrink?

Reliford has always been an umpire with a wide strike zone. This isn't breaking news. Abreu's played for ten seasons. Stop bitching and adjust.

Charlie Relaford is a total joke. And then he goes after Abreu. Why don't these guys have any accountablility in their freakin jobs.

Those pitches are unhittable, jerk. That is part of the game, and a big part of Bobby's. You work the count into your favor. You are the moron that said you'd rather he swing at bad pitches and strike out then take a walk though, so I guess that'd explain a lot. You get that crap called a strike and you have to swing at bad pitches. I KNOW you never played the game.

See above. Stupid comments, looking for something to rip the guy about. Those pitches aren't reachable, f's his whole at bat. Learn the game.

Hey maybe they need a shrink like in 'The Natural'. You know, the geek that comes in for the team and repeats the mantra 'losing is a disease'.

Think that would help?

Amazing, 4th inning and Phils haven't given up the lead yet!

Weitzel - lol they don't need a shrink they need to be blown up and I think most people on here would agree. This team is only what 5 or 6 games under .500 and I can't figure out how. They have no starter with an ERA under 5 except for Rocky Balboa and their hitters are hitting a paltry .250 for the season which would've been good about 25 years ago when anything over .275 was considered an extraordinary season. Now even the most mediocre hitters can hit .275. You look through this lineup especially when u throw the DH in and I really get sick. I see half of our lineup as an automatic out (Burrell, Nunez, Bell, Fasano/Coste/or name your other favorite other catching Scrub). And Mr. "J-Roll" offers nothing to this lineup in the way of production. Abreu is afraid to swing and can't take all the criticism so he goes into a shell and plays like a friggin girl

If the pitches aren't reachable for Bobby, why swing and risk hitting into a double play?

Double play = two outs
Strikeout = one

Unhittable? Those pitches are three inches off the plate! You're telling me Abreu can't hit that? What the hell are you watching? You and your flunky buddy Abreu can both go to a clinic and learn something yourself. You're right about one thing: it's part of the game. So live with it and shut your fat mouth.

Um, I realize that this season has taken a hard trun south, but are you seriously blaming Abreu's .450 obp, or the fourth catcher's (coste) .300+ batting average for our problems?

Lets take a breath here.

So Manuel called a pitchout when the runner tried to steal. That must have happened because he's a stupid hick idiot.

During the Phillies broadcast, Scott Graham said Hamels and Mathieson had a 30 minute conversation about pitching with Jim Palmer, the HOF pitcher and broadcaster for the Orioles. The meeting was arranged by Larry Andersen.

This brings up a conversation I had earlier with Senior Beerleaguer Correspondent Martin Smith. Martin wondered who is mentoring our young pitchers. There are currently no veterans on the team other than Lidle.

Who is equipped to teach our pitchers how to make it in the majors? Dubee? Fasano?

This may be one reason why our young pitchers have struggled. Meanwhile around baseball, pitchers even younger and less talented than Hamels and Mathieson have had better success.

btw - nice game by madson so far.

whatever he ate today, keep feeding it to him.

its 8:30 and the top of the 6th. Well I can't wait to see Madson blow up in the 6th inning. I think i saw someone post a stat that his era in the 6th innings of games is over 24.00! Expect to be tied or losing at about 9:00.

Larry Andersen would better serve the Phillies in uniform. I like him as an announcer, but I wish he had a bigger role in the organization. Rich Dubee will be out the door with Manuel.

Speaking of young pitchers, I like the way Ryan Madson's pitching aggressively tonight. He's gotten Mora swinging twice, after he hadn't struck out in 39 plate apperances. I still say they have something in Madson. It's a matter of getting consistent command.

Does Madson turn back into a pumpkin after the 5th?

The Phils would be better served if Rich Dubee joined the Doobie Brothers summer tour. Can't think of one pitcher he has helped on this team.

stop bringing up the .450 on base percentage. Its inflated because teams would rather face the K machine in Burrell. Plus Abreu won't swing and would rather just walk half the time. He is hitting for no power at all and jesus i can't believe he's only been charged with only 1 error all season. Who are the offical scorers and what are they watching. He should easily have 7 errors with outfield misplays.

Are you still waiting, nameless poster? Looked like a 1-2-3 inning to me.

We've been back and forth on Madson, RSB, but yeah ... tonight he's right there with his command and making quick work of the O's. He should have another chance to build on it considering the state of the rotation.

Saw this on phils nation site...anyone salivating at Mr. Amaro's announcement on 950 today that their going to give KEVIN JORDAN a tryout? WTF are they doing if this is true???

Rowand's average pre-wall .310 not .270. Looks like eyesight might be off or something from that wall.

Double off the wall...more great timing.

ok RSB - give it another inning its just a matter of time. Don't worry if it don't happen tonite expect 5 runs in the 1st inning of next start to bring his era back over 6.50. How pathetic is it to say that this guy could potentially have the most wins this season with an era like that

I betcha Mad Dawg proves you fools all wrong and goes on to win 17 - 20 games this year! He's a really cool guy. His wife is hott too!

Yes very profound, if you ignore Abreu's .450 obp, and 280 ba, the 20+ hrs 20+ sbs and 100 or so rbis he'll give you over the season all your left with is a sub-par right fielder.

What was I thinking, what a bum.

There's any number of pitchers I would rather watch hit than Sal Fasano.

I don't mean to keep waving the Madson flag in one of his rare good starts, but if you're watching you can see he does have a quality breaking ball. I don't buy that he's a two-pitch pitcher.

abreu's 20+ homeruns??? we have a 3-hole hitter projecting to 17 homeruns. he has only 13 since last all-star break. this isn't 1983. .280 and 17 isn't good enough from your "superstar" player.

Despite the drop in homers, Abreu's RBI production is well on par. 100 runs scored and 100 RBI are certainly good for any hitter. Wait, did I just defend Abreu?!?

A guy I work with is friends with LA. There's no way that he would give up his radio job and jump into the fire with this bunch running the team, he told this guy.

And I don't blame him one bit. Maybe if the regime changes, I agree he does have a lot to offer.

Hey, how about that Madson now.

From 1.2 innings, 6 runs, to 8 innings of shutout ball. Who are you and what have you done with Ryan Madson. Too bad buddy Brett isn't here to see it.

Wait, I could be on to something with that ...

I'm not in love with the guy, but when you talk about this team's problems, Abreu doesn't come right to mind. As for projected to hit 17, maybe he will this year, or maybe he'll pick it up a bit.

Just for a little perspecive:

yr hr
98 17
99 20
00 25
01 31
02 20
03 20
04 30
05 24

I guess I don't blame him, either. He's a guy who obviously speaks his mind, a guy who was a former player rep during the '94 strike and clashed with Giles & Co. In other words, three guesses why he isn't in the dugout. It's a wonder they let him keep his present job at all, the way he freely expresses disgust on the air.

abreu's high run total is a reflection of his high obp, which is why he should be hitting first. i think they could get the same or better power and rbi production from many other players. i don't think abreu's best qualities are being utilized with him hitting third.

fasano may look awful batting, but i would rather have an awful looking .246 from a catcher than start a 3B batting bad as david bell is, he might be right by getting mad when he sits, i mean, abraham nunez is disgusting

madson doing enough not to lose his rotation spot...for now.

and charlie manuel did proved his mensa-esque intelligence with that genius pitch-out call...get that chair moving stephen hawking, charlie's on your tail.

I have to admit, I loved the Stephen Hawking line.

is this going to be our first complete game shutout since...gavin floyd?

Floyd never pitched a shutout. Who was the last to do it?

Oh well, not tonight either. But still, the most heartening thing I've seen in weeks.

gavin floyd, may 11 versus mets. 5 innings pitched, 0 runs. game called after 5 due to rain. therefore, complete game shut-out

With two outs in the ninth inning, up 4-0, Madson gives up a base hit, his fifth of the game. Obviously, it's time for Dubee and the entire Phillies infield to gather at the pitcher's mound to "calm down the pitcher." This always works.

Okay, make that nine-inning shutout. It's been awhile.

Scott Graham just said last complete game shutout was by Cory Lidle in 2004 (9 Inn.)

Finally off the schneid, hooray.

Against the Mets, by the way.

Ladies and Gentlemen, your Philadelphia Phillies without Bell or Pat.

This is what we call addition by subtraction.

Dubee's soothing influence aside, Madson's start was the most positive event that's happened to the team in weeks. He had good zip on his fastball, but the curve especially was the best I've seen from him.

Chalk it up as another win in which two regulars sat.

Bell would have had a great time with the home-plate ump tonight.

Wasn't Dubee credited with turning Myers around after Kerrigan messed with his head?

Also, I heard an interview with LA in which he said that he took the announcing job so that he wouldn't have to worry about being tossed out if the manager were to get fired.

He might be tossed out anyway once Kalas retires.

Hats off to Ryan Madson, but I don't think it's a coincidence that he pitched well when the umpire had such a large strike zone. Getting ahead of the hitter and low pitch counts are what it's all about, especially with the Phillies starters, and the umpire tonight made sure neither pitcher fell too far behind in the count.

CM, do not touch this lineup, at least until they lose. Do you need any more evidence to tell you that Delucci and Victorino need to play more? The lineup has a lot more life with these two guys, both offensively and defensively

Sal had a good night tonight. Besides getting a single, he made a nice throw to nail Patterson trying to steal (on a pitchout). On the other side of the ledger was running directly into the second baseman's path so he could easily tag Sal and complete a DP on Rollins. If Sal stops, there's no DP, unless the second baseman had the quick wits to throw to 1B first and then get Sal in a rundown play later.
Also, Sal played despite nagging back pain caused by reaching for all those strikes that keep hitting off his glove and rolling away.
Sal should not be listed as a Catcher. His position is Deflector.

Kudos to Fasano, but can we use the DH for the catcher's position in Toronto?

Anybody know anything about Bernero?

OK, I'll say it. We picked up a game on the Mets!

(Please note my tongue planted firmly in cheek.)

Bernero? The Phillies got him because the Kansas City Royals didn't want him. Repeat: THE KANSAS CITY ROYALS DID NOT WANT HIM!

Need to know anything else?

He started for the Tigers in 2003, the year they lost 119 games.


On the Baseball-Reference site, at the top of his Similar Pitchers list is Julio Santana. So those of you who were sorry to see Julio go, never fear. We got him back in the name of Adam Bernero.

How'd the Phillies get him?

He had a clause in his contract with the Royals that said if he wasn't on the major league roster at the end of May he could ask for his release. He wasn't and he did. And, man, the Phillies jumped right on that one! Who says Gillick's not tuned in and doing everything he can to improve this team?

Seems like spirits are high this morning following an amazing outing by Madson. Bottom line is that Madson will continue in the rotation because the Phillies do not have a better option. Lieber isn't ready yet, Wolf experienced a set back, Myers is a dumbass...this rotation is beyond shambles. I still have to agree with Weitzel on the opinion of Madson basically being a two-pitch pitcher and best suited for the bullpen, but I'll take anything good that I can get right now, even if it is a fluke.

Isn't it funny how we're always debating Abreu's value to this team and where he should be in the lineup? I think we can all agree he has perfect #'s for a leadoff guy...sorta like Kevin Youkulis (sp?) of BoSox, except Abreu can swipe bags. J-Roll is a fine SS, and we wouldn't ride him so hard if he were our 7 hole hitter. I really don't know why Manuel doesn't switch the lineup around...not that it matters because our pitching staff isn't going to help the rest of the season.

More about Bell- a four year deal this butt-nugget got back in the day from us...can you believe that? He's simply just not good. He had some ok years, but nothing consistently worthy a four year pact...stupid Phillies!

Right up there with the Nunez signing for two years. Stupid!! Now we have two third basemen who cannot hit. I don't know a lot about Bobby Scales down at AAA, but wouldn't he be worth a shot? I mean, he cannot be any worse than Nunez can he? Nunez didn't even get the ball out the infield last night (and yes he did get a gift RBI). I wonder how many he has hit out of the infield this year. Every single time he either weakly grounds out or fouls out. His hits have been so few that I cannot remember if any of them were hit hard. It's really time the Phillies cut their losses with him. He actually makes Bell look good and that is a very hard thing to do. I am not sure why Phillies brass will not give a Scales a look (Ruiz also for that matter)? What do they have to lose?

Anyway, how bout that game last night! The Phillies did just about everything right, except for Howard's baserunning blunder. I too hold out hope for Madson, but its time he had a string of good starts before he gets back totally on my good side. That being said, it was a helluva performance. It was nice to see Chase playing well and Bobby coming through late in the game when he was clearly frustrated earlier. It was nice seeing Chase in the three hole. I agree that the Phillies should keep Delluci and Victorino in the line-up, however I have my doubts that Charlie will stick with them. Anyway, I think Alex Rios will be out for a game or two in the Toronto series, which will give the Phillies a little bit of a breather.

Jun 29 Rios was hospitalized on Thursday and expected to remain overnight to receive treatment on an infection in his lower left leg. The Toronto right fielder is having a breakout season, hitting .330 with 15 homers and 53 RBIs without committing an error.

The injury seemed to have occurred after he fouled a ball off his leg in the Blue Jays' 6-0 victory over Washington on Tuesday. He missed Wednesday's game as a precaution, but as the pain worsened, the team sent him to the hospital for treatment.

at thispoint, i think that its time to give Coste a couple starts at 3rd. Yes, thats right, Coste.

He sure as hell cant be worse than Bell and Nunez.

Who knows, maybe we have a "feel good" story. We sure as hell dont have a "feel good" season.

Anyone hear Phil Martelli on WIP this morning? He called the Phillies the worst organization in professional sports.

Does anyone disagree?

I'm glad for Madson. I heard he was pissed for being pulled in the ninth. That's good. Flash gets a save. That will help his trade value when we dismantle the team. It's nice to get a shutout win.

I watched ESPN Baseball Tonight last night and they spent some time talking about the Phillies. These Yahoos actually think the Phils have a chance at the Wild Card. It just goes to show that you can't believe everything you hear on TV.

I'm starting to think I'd rather see a complete youngster starting rotation of Hamels, Madson, Mathieson, Myers and Floyd. I could tolerate their losses more. I'd get rid of Lieber, Lidle, Franklin and Wolf from our wish list rotation.

One dissappointing season won't make me rate the phils over the knicks, royals, pittsburgh, saints, devil rays, texans, lions, etc. It's hard to remember in the middle of this, that there are many worse off organizations.

As far as last night goes, the best part was this morning when I read that Madson refused to talk to the media until his next game is a good one too. Finally, the kid may be getting it, and who knows maybe the team mentality is getting better.

Nunez is a solid defensive back-up, and he got a back-up's contract. As far as rollins goes, I don't think anyone would complain about him if he were batting seventh. He's got some pop, and is as solid as they come defensively at SS.

Flash's save. I thought you had to be 3 or less ahead to get a save. Someone explain this to me.

The phils have no shot at the wild card.

Good luck getting rid of Lieber's 7.5Million contract for next year. I like Lidle as a 5 starter (better than floyd). Wolf's salary next year should be so pitifully small I'm not sure I'd be too disappointed with him coming back. Wouldn't mind keeping Frankin around (his contract does run out this year), as long as the new manager uses him as he should be used. I.e. putting him in when madson blows up after 2 innings. Let him pitch 5 innings in a blowout. Who can have a problem with that?

"Nunez is a solid defensive back-up, and he got a back-up's contract."

But he cannot hit worth a damn. He sucked really bad with the Pirates and then happened to have an "ok" year for St. Louis last year when Rolen went down. It's absolutely brutal watching him bat. What does he have? Maybe 10 hits all year? Its freaking July and he is roughly hitting .150!! That is not acceptable at the major league level!! Send him to Scranton and have him play everyday (if you must) to straighten things out offensively. When he proves he can turn it around, you can possibly think of recalling him. Its not like we are going to lose him on the waiver wire. Personally, I would just let the guy go.

Did I miss something? Why are we sweating over Nunez this morning?

Just saying how weak of a hitter he is. Why is he on this team anymore? I don't get it, but hey the Phils won!

I was curious along the same lines as Will. How does Gordon get a save by pitching 1/3 inning with a 4 run lead. I, too, thought it was a 3 run cut-off.

Since we all look a step a couple of inches back off of the ledge last night, I think it's worth pointing out that Madson is only 25. I had forgotten how young he was until they mentioned it on the game last night. He's been with the team awhile, so you'd expect him to have more poise/experience. I'm not ready to give up on him yet (until he tosses his next 2IP 8ER 10H game).

I like the idea of a young rotation of Hamels, Mathieson, Madson, Myers and Floyd. Although, I'm still not sold on Floyd. If the Phils are going to get beat up anyway, might as well get the younger guys some starts. It would help, as noted above, to have a good pitching coach who wouldn't allow them to get rattled, however.

Like Franklin, it's how you play nunez that counts. You can play him in the 8th and 9th innings when you have a lead to prevent the Bell breakdowns. This is similar to what the Sox did in 2004 at first base with Doug Mienkewitz (spelling's awful)replacing Kevin Millar. That worked out well for them.

As far as the AAA guy goes, the phils plan may be to bring him up this season and groom him for the starting job for next year, keeping Nunez as his back-up. I'm all for giving those guys a shot when the season's already tanked.

gordon gets a save because he came in to the game with the tying run on-deck

are we really throwing adam bernero tonight? i guess calvin maduro was unavailable.

another thing: we all agree for the most part that far and away the greatest problem with this team is pitching and until that is addressed, the team will struggle. however, this doens't mean that other smaller problems (nunez, bell, rollins, where abreu bats, etc) get a free ride away from criticism. i'm glad there are people who still get angry at these things and want to see even the smallest problem fixed. i wish the phillies appeared to have the passion and initiative that some posters on here show. as fans we can't be apathetic, the front office takes care of that for us.

gordon gets the save because there were 2 on. tying run has to be on-deck for a save opportunity.

its time to let the guys who actually want to be playing baseball start playing. its a much snappier unit with pat on da bench.

one wonders what would happen if we got rid of all the locker room cancers on this team.

Thanks for the clarification on the save rule. I would have loved to have seen Madson make it a full nine, but he looked to be out of gas. Gordon really did save him.

Refecting on Jim Palmer talking to our pitchers before last night's game. One addition to the youngster starting rotation, I'd bring in some Hall of Famer caliber starting pitcher to be here either as the pitching coach or as and end of his career guy to be the elder stateman on the staff. Maybe I'd hire a Hall of Famer as a consultant to come in as needed. What's Sandy Koufax doing these days? If you need a Phillies connection, bring in Senator Bunning or Lefty Carlton.

AVG .218 OBP .266 SLG .322 OPS .588 for the month of June. Which Phillies' player has these numbers?

Not David Bell or Fasano either. Not Nunez. They belong to Rowland. While he did get hurt making a tremendous play, he has been awful since his return. Doesn't ever walk and he swings at anything lately.

Defensively, he also is overrated. Decent player but he isn't as good as advertised. Maybe he thinks he has to cover more ground since Burrell and Abreu cover known. Not sure. He has actually played better defensively since his wall injury but his arm is only average. Plus, he seems to consistently miss the cutoff man. I don't know why he does this but it is really annoying.

>What's Sandy Koufax doing these days?

*cough* wandering around new hope in drag? *cough*

But yeh, a senior statesman pitcher is really the key here... a Maddux, or Glavine type... there's a lot of names out there, and the best "leadership" guy we got is Lieber.

and maybe Gordon, but thats a different role.

Joe, that rumor about Koufax is a baseball urban legend. Read his bio.

Was thinking more about the Jim Palmer conversation with the Phils' young pitchers...Palmer's probably in the same boat as Andersen, an outspoken broadcaster who could probably better serve thir respective organizations as pitching coaches (at least if everyone can now acknowlwdge that bring in Mazzone was pure hype). It's just kind of striking to consider that this kind of offer to mentor was not suggested or initiated by anyone in uniform, but was done spontaneously by two broadcasters.

S & B's comment that "we all agree for the most part that far and away the greatest problem with this team is pitching" rings true only to a point. Far and away, the greatest problem with this team is that it's run by no-counts. Conlin outdid himself with his ownership-ripping column today. He is right to keep beating that particular horse, because that is the true source of all this misery. The Phillies are run very, *very* poorly.

Finally, it was cited in the paper that Howard's apparent baserunning error in the 7th inning was a contact play, so cut him a break on that one. Of course, the paper also said Burrell was "benched" and Bell was merely "rested" - as if the latter didn't deserve to be benched about fourteen months ago.

Rowand has been off this month, and longer if I remember correctly. But I'll take his win-or-die-trying attitude anyday. Key hits and good defense will win a lot of games.

Are there better CFs? surely. but he's not the worst, and he doesn't bat high enough to make a huge difference. Utley's slump's been killer though

Back to the saves rule. Is it an either/or thing? Because if the closer comes in with a 3 run lead and no one on and strikes out the side, then the tieing run never got on deck, right?

Surprising there's not more outrage over the Haigwood-Castro trade. Yes, odds are against a junkballer with no margin for error and Castro is a flame thrower. But Haigwood's upside is as a 4th or 5th starter while Castro will never be more than a reliever.
P.S. I think Jason should excise the comments by the multi-named posters, which are worthless and dilute the string. If you can't use one name and email link you should be allowed to post.

save rules:

10.20 Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions:

(1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and
(2) He is not the winning pitcher; and

(3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:

(a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or
(b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces); or

(c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings.

thanks S&B

I second Stub's opinion on not letting the "little" problems slide. Sure we know the organization as a whole is in trouble, but firing Manuel won't fix it (will help a tad though). So when people bitch about Bell, say it loud and say it proud, because Bell is horrible. Same goes for Nunez, they shouldn't be cut any slack! There are many problems with this team, and this is the perfect place for poppin' off about them.

I agree 100% Clout, those nameless posts are the bane of Beerleaguer...but then again it's not our site.

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