Game 2: Phillies try to even the score with Mets

The three-game series with the Mets continues tonight when Brett Myers (4-2, 3.44) faces Orlando Hernandez (4-5, 5.48) at Citizens Bank Park. The Phils trail the Mets by 7 1/2 games in the NL East.

The Mets are rolling, having won six straight after yesterday’s 9-7 series opener. David Wright, Carlos Beltran and Carlos Delgado each homered, but it was the Phillies defense that was talked about most this morning. The Phils committed three errors in a five-run sixth inning to blow it open for New York. Ryan Madson gave up six earned runs in his five innings of work to add to the list of things that went wrong last night.

It's a good time for the Phillies to send out their best pitcher to stop their small skid from turning into a streak. Brett Myers will look to recover from his worst outing of the season, having allowed a season-high six earned runs in Friday's 9-8 loss to Washington. Before that, Myers had strung together 11 consecutive quality starts.

On the other side, El Duque is coming off his first complete game in six years. The right-hander is 2-1 with a 4.05 ERA since the Mets acquired him in a May 24 trade with Arizona for reliever Jorge Julio.

Injury report
Before the game, the Phillies announced that pitcher Julio Santana will miss the rest of the season with Tommy John surgery. Santana has been on the DL since May 13 with right elbow tendinitus.

Randy Wolf is OK after getting hit on his pitching hand with a line drive yesterday. He will have his next rehabilitation start pushed back a day or two, according to an AP report.

Comments

[Call me Jroll]

guess i'm your leadoff hitter, hope i do better than that moron JROLL. Perhaps try the do-rag or the dreds to get your luck up Jimmy. Maybe if you looked at a few pitches you'd be hitting over .250. But anyway looks like i'm going to have a lot of free time the rest of this summer and fall not having to waste my time watching these morons. Since they'll be 10 games out by the end of this series. Bring back Ricky Otero to Leadoff he even had a better OB% than JRoll (oops he's just Jimmy to me)

[Otero]

Do u realize Otero had a .330 OP% with the Phillies and he was an awful leadoff hitter. While our current leadoff hitter (Making a ton of $ for the next 5 years) has a lower OB%! Makes you really wonder what Wade was thinking when he signed him last summer. Gillick has recognized Wades mistakes and slowly gotten rid of them. I wonder if he does anything with the SS position

[BELL does it again]

I want Selig to check and see if Bell has bets placed on these games the way he's playing. Get rid of the entire left side of our team (Called 3rd K Burrell, J-Dud, and Ding-dong Bell is done)

[Grandslam]

can anyone say salami?

[yt]

If Bell is betting on these games, he's doing a lousy job of disguising it.

[Nat]

OK, we've stolen the Philadelphia Phillies and replaced them with the Kansas City Royals. Let's see if anybody notices...

[Panda]

Wow. I'm going to do something more productive with my time than watch the ENTIRE freaking team make errors. Myers isn't even pitching that bad. What a joke.

I agree, it looks like they're throwing this one.

[Dylan]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

YOur team must be wearing tin gloves or something, wow, i havent seen a team this bad in my life. Sorry for you fans because they cant do anything right field, hit in key situations, catch routine fly balls, run bases, get out of jams, your team needs to be gutted and start over again because they are awful, have fun going on vacation on October 2nd.

[RickSchuBlues]

Enjoy it while it lasts, Mets fools. You're not this good and we're not this bad. I don't think. We can't be.

[RickSchuBlues]

Larry Andersen's pissed. Are the Phillies?

[Mets Fan]

No, we're not this good. But, you just MIGHT be this bad...

[4 run Factor]

If i hear the moron phillies announcers mention the 4 run factor or Jroll K'ing to leadoff the game being a good thing then i'll shoot myself

[RickSchuBlues]

On national television and with Wagner laughing his head off in the bullpen, no less. Mortifying. What hideous errors did we commit in past lives to be baseball fans born around Philadelphia?

[theragtopguy]

This is our birthright, RSB.

Hey, we got a couple of runs, youneverknow!

Screw the obnoxious Mutts posters here.

Go back to your stinky city.

When are the Phils pitchers gonna give somebody a bow tie? When will the team get fed up with this crappola?

C'mon!! Get mad!!

[Dylan]

This better not get rained out. That will be 2 games you cost us. At least the first one was till up in the air if we have to replay this game in august im gonna be mad, unless they play 2 anytime in the August series, then i wont care because i will be in attendance.

[Dylan]

That just made no sense at all, i meant i would be mad unless they replay this game in the august series because i have tickets. This should be an easy W for the mets, and the rain might screw it up.

[RickSchuBlues]

It would be sweet justice as far as I'm concerned. Or did you think your whining would get a good reception here?

[Panda]

Hmmm. So predictions on how the rest of the season will play out? If the Phils keep losing series, will Manuel get yanked or will Gillick chalk things up to a "rebuilding" year and tell Charlie to push for the Wild Card?

I know this team is better than this. They're playing like they're scared of the Mets. If pitching can just start getting a decent handle on games, I know the Phils can play better than this nonsense.

Kruk on ESPN made a good comment a few minutes ago--about the difference between swinging so as to not miss the ball vs. swinging to choose to hit the ball. The Phils needs to start doing the latter. And stop choking with RISP! Do you think the hitting coach has anything to do with this lack of situational hitting?

[Panda]

Oops, sorry for the profanity Jason. My emotions getting the better of me.

[That Dude]

Has the game been called?

[theragtopguy]

Getting ready to start again in a couple of minutes.

Situational hitting? Phils don't even know the meaning of the word. They seem to have the philosophy of swing as hard as I can and hope the ball hits the bat.

Good hitters set up pitchers. The only one that can do that consistently is Abreu.

Well, let's see what we can do now. let's go Phils!!

Oh and in his entire history of being a GM, Gillick has NEVER fired a manager in mid-season. So Elmer is probably secure thru the year.

[agwynne]

I had seats tonight, but left when the rains started.

I was particularly upset by Rowand's Willie Mays impression in centerfield. From my seats in left it looked like he had enough time to turn around and play it facing back into the field of play. I understand he sacrificed his face to make a play against these same mets, but that looked like a hotdog play on a national telecast, trying to make web-gems or something on baseball tonight.

[RickSchuBlues]

agwynne, good point on the Rowand play. He was turned around an awfully long time. And then of course we had a ball clank off Abreu's glovce, but that's pretty much a nightly occurance. That guy just gets worse and worse out there. And I love Ryan Howard, but sometimes he tries to do too much. He's just thrown away two at-bats tonight trying to hit the ball 500 feet on pitcher's pitches. Sometimes he goes up there with a really good approach, but it's not all the time.

This team's been sloppy all year. When a team just does so much to beat itself, you can't help but get down on it. And they look like a minor-league team at the hands of the Mets, at home. An ongoing disgrace brought into a uniquely bright light in this series.

[Jon]

Lets not forget Charlie laughing at the ump as he was thrown out and then laughing with Varsho in the dugout afterwards. I cannot stand him and will continue to say that the Phils will be better off the sooner they wake up and realize the joke that he has become, or should I say the joke he always has been...

[J. Weitzel]

I'm right there with you on the Rowand play as well, agwynne.

[RickSchuBlues]

How can Bobby Abreu be that bad? Does anyone remember him being quite this bad in RF when they played at the Vet? What is the problem? He misses 4 our of 5 catchable balls at the warning track.

[Jon]

It's becoming a mental thing with Bobby. Not pretty at all, kind of like this team at the moment...

[agwynne]

What would it take to bring Lou Pinella to a dugout in South Philly?

There's a guy who knows how to get thrown out. He'd throw his hat, he'd stomp his hat, he'd kick the dirt, he'd throw first base. And best of all, he wouldn't dare laugh.

Pinella + Gillick = 2001 Mariners = 116 regular season wins

[Jon]

Not taking away from his awesome throw out of Reyes from his knees, but why is Coste on this team? I would rather run my chances with Ruiz out there. What is Coste? 0 for 10 now? He doesn't even hit the ball solidly. I know he is a nice guy, but we are trying to win games here. It's bad enough we have to run Fasano out there 5 times a week. It's time to give Ruiz another look in my opinion.

[Abreu]

RSB - he wasnt making $15 million per year 3 years ago at the Vet. He was always bad but before he tried probably to get a paycheck, but now he's cashed it in and going through the motions out there...he needs to go, burrell needs to go, and 2/3 of the pitching staff needs to go, oh wait i forgot J-Roll and bell who can also go. TIme for a Florida style firesale. These guys are all overpaid and cronic underachievers

[agwynne]

Bobby was the first one on the scene when Rowand went into the wall and got a chance to see just how bad Rowand's face was. He won't let that happen to him, and he knows that if he avoids the wall, he won't have to worry about it.

[RickSchuBlues]

Jon, you most definitely have a point about Ruiz.

I wouldn't mind seeing Piniella in the dugout. But I doubt it'd translate to 116 wins. He didn't exactly work wonders in Tampa Bay...which should tell you something about the impact of a manager.

Yeah agwynne! I want someone who is going to be pissed off when they are out there trying to defend one of their players, even if it isn't warranted like the case with Bell tonight. I want fire! I want someone who shows some emotion when their team is playing like absolute crap against the team they are attempting to catch! I want a student of the game who knows how to adequately use his roster and isn't afraid to challenge or question management! Pinella would be GREAT, then again, most anyone would be an upgrade over Uncle Chuck...

[Jon]

Yeah agwynne! I want someone who is going to be pissed off when they are out there trying to defend one of their players, even if it isn't warranted like the case with Bell tonight. I want fire! I want someone who shows some emotion when their team is playing like absolute crap against the team they are attempting to catch! I want a student of the game who knows how to adequately use his roster and isn't afraid to challenge or question management! Pinella would be GREAT, then again, most anyone would be an upgrade over Uncle Chuck...

[RickSchuBlues]

What's with Bell, anyway? He leads the league in throwing fits for no apparent reason. The pitch he was yapping about was right down the middle, belt high. His act is beyond old.

[Panda]

Is it just me or does playing the Mets feel like Florida from 2003 all over again?

[agwynne]

I think Burrell's training to be Bell's understudy in that act. Bobby does have a good eye, so when he's rung up looking, he might have legitimate beef. But Pat and D-Bell really look like clowns arguing calls that aren't even close.

I think all this anger is coming from having to take it from stupid mets fans at the stadium tonight and the team giving me nothing to come back with.

[theragtopguy]

I also would love to see Piniella here.

But I just don't see it happening, they cried about Bowa and Sweet Lou is cut out of the same no BS mold.

The Phils lead the league in crying to HP umpires!

[Jon]

I say bring in Pinella and get rid of the pansies who feel he is too hard on them. Maybe players like Utley and Rowand would embrace someone with that approach and have it rub off onto the others. What does Manuel bring? Coddling? Comfort? There is no coddling in baseball!!

[RickSchuBlues]

ragtop, the big difference is Gillick knows Piniella and Piniella has had a lot of success as a manager. This town would surely embrace him better than Manuel and who knows, the team might as well - not that I think he'd really make all that much of a difference, one way or the other. It may seem premature to speculate on such a thing being that it surely wouldn't come to pass for another four months, but it's looking more and more like the season itself is going to amount to nothing but another second-place battle. And clearly, Manuel is gone after the season. Even if the higher-ups think he's done a good job, the reality is the fans hate him and the team still hasn't won. He'll meet with the same fate, and for the same reason, as Wade.

[J. Weitzel]

What's with the whole team? In the time I've done this site, I've never been so embarrassed to be a Phillies fan. The Mets are clearly the team to beat, and they pick this series to play the most idiotic ball of the season. How do you pitch to Endy Chavez? When is the right time to steal a base? How do you field a chopper at third? How do you respond when calls don't go the way you think they should?

Not enough discipline. When it gets this bad, it goes back on the manager. This series demanded a focused approach, and the Phillies came unprepared for the fight.

[theragtopguy]

The only way it would happen if they decided to do as Jon suggested above--get rid of the whiners.

I guess anything is possible. I mean I can't stand Elmer either and I've just about run out of colorful adjectives and such to say about him and his lousy non-managing.

[RickSchuBlues]

Well, I'm all for getting rid of the whiners. The sooner the better. Just tired of watching them buckle under, y'know? Good players, sure. But the team's a big, fat loser.

And I have to agree that you hold the manager accountable to some degree for this debacle. You play this badly in a big series, something's obviously not right. I mean, yes, we knew that, but rarely has it been quite so blatant.

[Jon]

Chalk this one up for another loss for the Phightin' Phils...

[RickSchuBlues]

They phight the umpires, and that's about it. Can't even lose with dignity.

[RF - Where's Von Hayes at?]

Hey guys its your old pal Ricky Jordan #17 from the Phils of the early 90's. I know you're probably not going to take me seriously since i'm 41 know and haven't played since '97 with AA Pitsburgh but I think I can really help your team out and could do it at a cheap cost. Hell according to my stats on www.thebaseballcube.com I pitched pretty well in over 32 games @ Scranton in '96 wiht an era about 5.00 which is actually lower than the average for the starters this year which is 5.30. Hells I used to even get my heater up to 84 mph which is harder than alot of pitchers on the team (brito, franklin and lidle). Well i think i used to get it up that fast but you have to remember I was still in the midst of a 3 year hangover from playing on that '93 team. Nails, Kruk and Dutch even my compadre Duncan would really put the drinks down! Plus I can definetly hit better off the bench than that miserable excuse for a ballplayer Nunez. I've actually never left the area and will always consider myself a Phillie. Give me a call sometime....215-928-0227

ANyone notice that abreu reminds you of Von Hayes with his who cares attitude?

[RickSchuBlues]

Hey Ricky, already posted that on the last thread. Would you mind getting lost now?

[agwynne]

All these mets fans came down the turnpike to watch the game and post on this board. Too bad they left their brains in Flushing Meadow. And what's up with a team that plays in a place named after the sound a toilet makes? Seriously?!

[Dylan]

For criticizing people for being stupid, that was the most immature childish STUPID comment i have ever read. But who am I to judge, i live in Flushing, ill pause here for your 6 year old giggle.

[agwynne]

I desperately wish there was a way to convey sarcasm online.

[Dylan]

One more thing, ive heard people bragging on this posts that they know the meaning of words such as facetious and apt. Most people are taught those words before they enter middle school. You are so ignorrant it isnt even funny anymore. Its like bragging because you know your timestables, get a clue.

[agwynne]

I really like facetious because it's one of the few words in the english language that has all 5 vowels in order.

[RickSchuBlues]

Getting into arguments with Mets fans is about as productive as trying to teach a foreign language to a garden gnome.

[theragtopguy]

HAHAHAHA!

Great one, RSB!

[davidWrightisaGod]

I can't wait for the sweep tomorrow. Nothing better than the disgusted look of ignorant Phillies fans. Stick with the Eagles ladies, at least they make the playoffs before they choke..

[MG]

David Bell and Jimmy Rollins have nothing to do with this loss tonight. It was solely the lousing starting pitching by Myers. Watched the first three innings on MLB and he was horrible. Just a pathetic effort by the supposed staff ace.

In a game the Phils desperately needed something to pick them up, Myers didn't show up at all. He had nothing on his fastball and didn't locate well at all. Lucky Myers gets paid the same every game because he certainly didn't do anything to earn it tonight. Phils fans should have booed him when he walked off the field.

This team doesn't have enough starting pitching. They might finish .500 but I could care less about that. Hope they are careful with Hamels and any other young pitchers they bring up (Mathieson).

And as for the whole Coste thing. It has been touching but he has no business on a major league roster. I know Ruiz has done nothing at T-AAA since he was sent down but bring him back up and platoon him with Fasano. At least see if Ruiz is even capable of being a backup catcher next year since it is doubtufl Captain Meatball will be back.

[Book]

Yet another crappy showing by the Phillies. Horrible defense, can't hit with runners in scoring position, starting pitcher lets us down, bullpen can't hold 'em...what the hell?!?!?!?!?! But wait, someone is going to turn around and tell me, "they're only 3.5 back of the wild card"...no way in hell this team is getting a wild card. But go ahead and think that...

[cap]

If nothing else, at least start a petition to get Abreu's Gold Glove back. It had to have been a mistake, right? Is there a team that plays in a park with no fences? Trade him there.

[Tony]

This just goes to show how those "win share" stats are meaningless. On the surface, with Abreu's OBP, BA, and RBI numbers it looks like he's having a great year. But when you take into account all of the misplayed balls against the wall and how many runs he's given up defensively he's not nearly as valuable as people believe. And I love how they don't give him errors on those plays. That Reyes triple was a joke.

[Lake Fred]

I agree with Jason about being embarassed as a Phillies fan. I've stopped telling my wife about the losses. Dropping three of four against the gNats was embarassing. These two games against the Mets...embarassing.

Pitching is really letting us down. We have no number one starter. We have no number two starter. We have a rotation made up of third and fourth starters at best. I think there is too much whining about Abreu, Burrell, Bell, JRoll, et al. We really need to be complaining about starting pitching.

Just like the bad feeling I had about Floyd just before he was sent back to Scranton, I have the same bad feeling about Uncle Charlie. He might not be gone this week, but this pitiful stretch has sealed the deal. I'm sure that Gillick is doing the mental calculations to secure a replacement. Once that is done, Foghorn will be shown the door and the replacement will be announced and will take over immediately.

[Tony]

Vicente Padilla - 8 IP, 3 singles, 7 K's in an 8-0 win over the White Sox last night.

Good thing we traded him for a bag of balls and some ankle tape.

[Will]

The phils need a manager who can setup a line-up card. Jimmy aint that bad of a SS, he just isn't a leadoff guy and he never was, he should be batting 6 or 7th. Everyone knows that. Abreu should be leading off considering he LEADS THE LEAGUE IN OBP. Abreu, Rowand, Utley, Howard, Burrell, Jimmy, Bell, Lieby, P. Everyone and their mother knows it.

[Will]

Tony -

Guys do better in different situations, I don't think Thome would be hitting nearly as well here, and Padilla is a head-case. Don't forget last year he pitched a couple gems for us, he's not consistent, and he wouldn't be that good for us anyways.

[WholeTeamStinks]

I agree Abreu is really struggling going back on the ball and its stuck in his head now, but all those runs? Really? 5 maybe? The run he gave up last night, he got right back. As he usually does. You also have to take into consideration all of those great throws he makes because no matter what you say about catching the ball, he can sure throw it. Most teams won't even try to take an extra base on him.

Speaking of which, he got his error last night because there is no way that throw should've been charged to him.

While we're on the subject of defensive liabilities, there is not one player on this team who plays consistantly good defense. The closest they have is JRoll and he makes his share of game losing mistakes. See Overthrows of first.

Catchers mediocre to terrible depending who is behind there ranging from Lieby to Ruiz to Coste to Fatsano.

Howard has been terrible at first, he can not throw and does not know how to cut off a throw.

Utley throws like a girl and is clearly erratic, but I like his toughness when turning the double play, so I'll cut him a little slack. BTW, where's he been this series?

David Bell remains one of the biggest liabilities in the field and at the plate.

Pat Burrell has a nice accurate arm, but he has easily misplayed as many balls as Abreu with half the range due to a bad foot.

Rowand looked like a circus performer on that play last night (I believe he pulled up, BTW) and is one of the most inaccurate throwers in the game. see Howard, cut offs. Also see Air Mail.

And Abreu can't go back on a ball to save his life.

This team has been built to win with offense. Unfortunately, pitching and defense wins baseball games.

[Tony]

Will -

Lidle right now is 4-5 with a 4.68 ERA. He's considered valuable because he's an "innings eater" and keeps the team in games. Padilla is 6-4 with a 4.65 ERA, why isn't he considered an innings eater as well? And is he more of a head case then Gavin Floyd?

I know he stunk last year, and I see your point about the change of scenery, but I think he was hurt last year and that might have effected him. My point is he's a better option then Madson or Floyd and certainly more valuable then that stiff we got for him. That deal and the Abraham Nunez 2 year signing are inexcusable. And top it off with a side of Ryan Franklin.

Bottom line, they all suck and we're talking about which one would "suck the least".

To all my Phillies friends...keep the faith. They are not as bad as this.

[Will]

Tony -
If you're gonna compare Lidle and Padilla, at least don't use their records, cause then you're comparing run support and bull pens as well.

The question of Padilla comes back to your view on this season. You think this could be a playoff season. Even with Padilla I'd doubt we'd make the playoffs or go anywhere once there. So the Phils took the chance and threw two newbies into the rotation, hoping one would stick. Even if Madson or Floyd, or even Mathieson find their groove late this season, that sets up a nice rotation for next year with (Insert Traded Ace), Myers, Lieber, New Guy, Lidle. Padilla's a great innings eater I guess, but he's older and they need something for the future in the rotation.

Gillick got Franklin for specifically for innings eating in the off-season. The rotation's 4th and 5th spots should have gone to Franklin and Floyd with Madson getting the nod when Floyd failed.

They are not as bad as this, but they're not much better, the line-up is keeping them afloat, and I wouldn't be suprised to see them rattle off another winning streak once Manuels gone

[yt]

Will, you forgot Hamels in your rotation, but on the other hand, I think Lieber may very well be done. A 36yo with a bad back is not a guy to hang you hopes on.

[yt]

I realize that the first impulse is to blame the pitching when a team rings up nine runs on you, and it certainly needs to get better.

But we should not lose sight of the fact that pitching is as much mental is it is physical. If your a pitcher who knows everything that gets hit will put the batter on base, you start to think all about strikeouts, and try to be too fine, and fall apart.

If you are pitcher who figures "hey, I just need this guy to hit the ball on the ground, and my guys will take care of it," you thrown less pitches, you last longer, and you can be more agressive.

Everything hit to rightfield is an extra base hit, everything hit toward Bell is an infield single. This team has no fielding, and it is killing us!

[Will]

The injury list on Hamels is a mile wide, it may be a toss up as to whether Lieber or Hamels can stay healthy longer. Once the season's officially tanked, I expect lieber to go on the DL and then the rotation gets really fun.

[Overstating it again]

Everything hit to rightfield is an extra base hit? Come on with this. Maybe 5 misplays all year.

[Tony]

WAAAAAAAYYYYY more then 5.

It's AT LEAST 10.

[No F'in WAY]

You sound like a guy that listens to the radio a lot more than he watches the games.