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Friday, June 02, 2006


He definately doesnt want to be out there. It's time, pull the cord Phillies...

Btw, as to my comment last night, SC+South Carolina, not So Cal, so I still dont get why the game was blacked out.

nice piece. Floyd has had too many opprtunities already. Go with Hamels, and if Brito and/or Madson don't cut it, let's bring up Gio!

Floyd is not ready to be a big league pitcher, it's as simple as that. I don't know about depression, desire, or what. All I know is he's not producing, and shouldn't be out there, and is hurting the team's chances of making the postseason with every start.

Best possibility: Myers, Liber, Lidle, Hamels, Floyd (when both are back) with Madson in long relief/spot starter.

I don't think he could be a fireman. I haven't seen him get any fires out...

Weitzel hit the nail on the head with this quote: "However, there's something horribly wrong with the hometown nine, something deep in the core. And we say the same thing every year."

It cannot be summed up any better...

So true, he looks like he's going to cry when things go wrong. And I can't even watch when he pitches anymore. No command of his fastball, inconsistent with his curveball, becomes easily rattled, no presence on the mound, his fastball isn't fast enough to blow it by hitters. He's a mess right now. Unfortunetly every start he makes decreases his trade value.

He's a mental midget.

Remember the article in the Daily News that pretty much slammed David Montgomery for having the attitude that winning games was not the top priority? That's my vote for the "something horribly wrong deep in the core." And that's the constant year after year. I still have some faith in Gillick, and players like Utley and Rowand. But the hustle-meter detects little from Burrell and Abreu. Can non-player/coach personnel have that much of an impact on on-the-field attitude?

Tony, he is a kid. Cut him a little slack for getting too emotional, ok? Criticism him for not doing a good job, by all means, but can we please keep personal attacks out of it?

tony, i believe the term "mental vertically challenged" is more politically correct.

I take back what I said about Floyd being a fireman. I think he should be a funeral director. He has just about buried his own big-league career. His fastball is dead. His curve is lifeless. Teammates die of boredom standing there while he throws 50 crappy pitches in two innings. Drinking embalming fluid would be a more enjoyable past-time than watching a ballgame he's pitching in. He casts a pall over everything. If he stays in the rotation we should call for Last Rites for the Phillies' season.

Have I left out anything? Oh, yeah. He kinda looks like one of those guys from Six Feet Under.

I agree PK, I don't care if the kid is popping Prozac on the mound, it's about results.

The Floyd situation is really out of hand. He just doesn't have the confidence. He allows a bad inning to turn into a bad outing, which carries over to the next outing, and soon a full month is down the tubes. I hope the Phillies will recognize this and seek some other alternative because they can't afford 4-inning, 7-run starts like this.

The Floyd situation has been out of hand for some time and all the rabbits'feet and tarot cards and hopin' and wishin' the Phillies alleged brain trust have relied on couldn't make it any different. I don't blame the kid. They sent him out there despite all the evidence and he didn't have what it took.

I feel sorry for Floyd. If he stays in the majors he gets hammered and feels depressed. If he gets sent out he is demoted and depressed. Either way, he's depressed. I do not like, however, his "sometimes it is just that way" attitude about it. Seems like he feels that the situation is out of his control, a sure harbinger of yet more depression.

Sent out or not, if he can't get past his emotional baggage, he won't ever be a reliable major league pitcher. So send him out with this message: get over yourself and pitch!

what's up with politcally correct? politcallly correct doesn't get to the point and humorless. there's nothing wrong with saying Floyd is a headcase if he indeed is a headcase. Just my thoughts, not trying to offend...I guess I'm just not meant for a p.c. world.

Nat: your analysis of Floyd just made my day better. You got to the point and used humor. I like to read things that are funny and make a valid point at the same time. Good work bro!

Good thing Floyd was one of Wade's "untouchables" the last 3 years.

My point on Floyd: He isn't good enough to pitch in the bigs. I don't hold this against him, but it's true anyway. He is hurting the team and should stop pitching in the majors ASAP.

Got your point pawnking...and I'm really not trying to start something with you because I almost always agree with your opinions. I'm just wondering what's wrong with being commical? I have nothing against Floyd as a person, but to poke fun of him for the way he looks or pitches I just don't see the harm. Stats are great, discussing strategy and players is all well and good, but I like humor peppered in along the way to keep it interesting because laughing and learning at the same time is good in my book.

I guess I just can't shake that "Tyler Green" letdown-type of feeling with Floyd. Expectations can so often be the enemy of success.

I don't have anything against being humorous. Unless you are Tony, I don't have a beef with your comments, and I enjoyed the hyperbolic comedy that Nat gave us.

I just thought (maybe incorrectly) that Tony was going a bit far in his criticism. I thought he was attacking the character of Floyd, rather than his performance. I don't see anything about his character deserving of criticism, and thought we should limit things to his abilities. I'd expect the same consideration if Floyd were my kid out there.

alright pawnking...we're cool. and like i said above, i almost always agree with you.

Food for thought on this season:

Let's say they are 40-39 on July 1 after their tough June schedule. If Phils have to win 93 games to clinch a wildcard, the Phils have to go 53-30 (.639). Maybe the offense can catch fire when it warms up, but there is no way this team's starting pitching allows them to play .600 play over a long stretch. They only have two starters, Lidle and Myers, who give them enough quality starts.

I would rather have Gillick made a big move with Abreu/Burrell to get a starting pitcher than watch this team win 83 or 85 games. Especially, since the free agent market for starting pitching is really weak for '07.

MG, I've said this is previous post about the free agent market being depleted this offseason, and even worse now with Mora and Escobar being locked up to 3 year deals. Zito is not coming to Philly. Schmidt is a health risk, and most likely won't do Philly either. What we'll end up with is a Paul "Preacher Man" Byrd...will that get us to the playoffs...think not!

<< There's something horribly wrong with the hometown nine, something deep in the core. And we say the same thing every year. >>

Ahhhhhhhh. Mr. Weitzel is onto something here. The core is Mike Arbuckle and the philosophy. Why is he still here after 14 years of playoff futility? His philosophy is way too extreme. He drafts on tools and not enough baseball players. Then we have all these lackeys in the scouting department that think the same way. Dallas Green, Marti Wolever, ect. These guys all survive on this high ceiling philosophy. They are like the old Russian Politboro. Look at the stats of some of the players they've selected in the draft in the top 8 rounds. They're horrible. And you wonder why the Philles farm clubs aren't any good? That's why. They'll tell you the goal is to produce major leaguers, but when a lot of top 8 draft picks cant make it past High-A Clearwater, something's wrong. The Phils just cannot find gems outside the first round of the draft, and even there they have failed. Just 1 solid pitcher in 14 years in Brett Myers? Please. If you think I'm kidding you, just wait until draft day next Tuesday and count the times you hear the phrase 'He has a high ceiling." I've yet to see 1 Phillies player hit that ceiling.
It's easy to look back and see why Pat Gillick was hired. He has this philosophy too. What's that old saying about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result?

A lot of baseball left to play, but things do not good right now for the Phils. They have a very winnable game this evening against Jae Seo. Madsen needs to be able to get beyond the 5th inning tonight. Myers is the only starter I have any confidence in right now and that's not good. And if they get buried on this 11 game road trip (say going 3-8), I forsee trades where the Phils will be the sellers. And I am not looking forward to 3 months of meaningless baseball. So, this is the time where the Phils need to step up and show Gillick they are legitimate contenders.

"I guess I just can't shake that "Tyler Green" letdown-type of feeling with Floyd. Expectations can so often be the enemy of success."

I here ya on that one. There was a article in the paper about Green a couple months ago. I think he's coaching baseball at Germantown Academy and selling insurance which is what Floyd will be doing if he doesn't turn it around. I hope he does but he's shown me nothing in the majors to think that he will. No improvement, no adjustments, no "flashes of brilliance"...nothing.

Carson, is Mulder is a free agent after this year? I thought he was. I could be wrong though.

You know it's sad when we're comparing Floyd to Green and his amazing knuckle-curve. I hate to say this, but Floyd's #'s are actually worse than Green' that's bad!

I believe you're correct that Mulder is a free agent Tony.

I think Wolf would count as a solid pitcher, Walter, and Bucholtz, Ramirez, Eaton all could still be. It's tough to fault the draft on the position player side however, as this team has drafted a virtual all-star team:

CF - VIC (well, not really a draft pick)
RF- Michaels

Add to that spare parts like Byrd, Anderson and it's tough to fault the farm system for the teams failures.

"I would rather have Gillick made a big move with Abreu/Burrell to get a starting pitcher than watch this team win 83 or 85 games."

You make it seem as if these are mutually exclusive is possible that the Phillies could have traded Abreu or Burrell AND won 83-85 games.

I still have faith in this team, especially if FLoyd is out of the rotation. PK is right, even a bad pitcher like Franklin would probably be worth an extra 2-3 wins so far this year over Floyd. Take awy 3 losses and add 3 wins and suddenly the PHils are in the thick of it.

Improving from a 6.50 ERA 5th starter to a 5.00 ERA 5th starter is just as important as having an ace w/ a 2..50 ERA instead of 3.50.

Free agent pitching is a crap shoot. A lot of times you end up with Denny Neagles, Mike Hamptons, Chan Ho Parks, A.J. Burnetts, or even John Liebers...the good ones are rare, and the ones that seem to be good often end up not being.

We're going to need 3rd and C too. I can only hope we don't plug the hole with a Joe Randa or Greg Zaun (albeit Zaun is on fire now).

wow, I thought it was bad when we were comparing Floyd to Tyler Green, now people are muttering Franklin's name for the rotation instead of Floyd. I think the writing on the wall is obvious, Floyd is a loser! Not loser, as in unpopular, wouldn't want to hurt his feelings. Loser as in he's just not a winner.

Yeah, but even if the Cards let him walk (which I doubt) Mulder will want a 4 or 5 year deal, and Gillick won't do that...

Why not plug 3B with a one-year deal to David Bell?

Even if Hamels can stay healthy (Big If), that leaves the Phils will only 3 solid starters. Phils are not going to get enough quality starts from the group of Madsen, Brito, Lieber , Floyd, etc. to contend for a playoff spot.

Franklin would be a marginal upgrade over Floyd. I emphasize the word marginal. And as for Wolf returning, he is coming off Tommy John surgery and it always takes 2 seasons for a pitcher to really regain his stuff.

Weitzel, are you being serious with the David Bell thing? I know you like him, but c'mon!

Free agent pitcher market is not strong next year. Some other names not mentioned that could help a team: Ponson, Armas Jr, Contreras, Petite, Randy Wolf. Mulder, Zito, and Schmidt are certainly the big guns. And this is not a defense of Floyd since he certainly has stunk , particularly in his last 4 starts; but in his 11 starts , the Phils are 5-6. To say, they would be 7-4 or 8-3 if Ryan Franklin had started in his place is piling on a bit, don't you think ?

Contreras already locked up!

I thought I remembered reading that Mulder signed an extension a couple months back. I could be wrong.

please, no more david bell. granted he was "hot" last month hitting .281. but he was hot may '05 too (.291) and finished at .248-10-61. and over the last two seasons he's hitting one out every 52 at-bats. they can't go with this guy past this year.

if the phils want pitching, they are going to have to get it through trades, giving up young pitchers to get older ones. or wait (hope) for young prospects to develop which works sometimes (hamels) and othertimes, not so much (floyd)

I don't think we should count out Madson or Lieber yet. Both have track records of being able to get major league hitters out (as does, Brito, BTW, but in a small sample size).

As for Bell, I have wanted him gone for a while but I don;t know who replaces him, I can't believe I'm actually thinking a one-year deal might not be bad...ugghhh! the Polanco trade will haunt us forever!

are we worried about offending midgets or mental people?

That Dude...I ain't worried about that!

This just in...

Floyd has been optioned to AAA

"are we worried about offending midgets or mental people?"

I have no idea. I thought it was a joke at first but some people got offended at my calling Floyd a "mental midget". I meant no disrespect towards midgets and/or kids that can't throw strikes.

"Floyd has been optioned to AAA"

Great news, I feel the team's fortunes changing already. Madson and Brito can now pitch without worrying that they are auditioning for a spot.

Tough crowd. If you'll recall, the Phillies plan was to send Floyd down for a desperately needed full season in Triple A. But his hot spring and the total failure of the guy they got for Padilla, changed their mind. But it didn't change the fact that the kid desperately needed a full seasopn at Triple A. I hope his being pushed too soon into the bigs doesn't wreck him or lead to a trade. You can make a damn fine rotation out of starters the Phils have traded.

damn fine rotation would probably not include Carlos Silva, who's not looking quite so much like the one who got away anymore.

If you want a good laugh, read some of the reaction when Floyd made the starting rotation after a great spring.


and here

My favorite: "That's awesome. I'm glad Floyd is getting his shot. If this guy lives up to his billing, we have the makings of a pretty solid rotation to match our bigtime lineup...

I'm pretty excited about this."

Ah well. Can't be right every time.

Ouch! These two sentences from Clout hurt:

"If you'll recall, the Phillies plan was to send Floyd down for a desperately needed full season in Triple A. But his hot spring and the total failure of the guy they got for Padilla, changed their mind."

What this describes is a three-point arc of failure by Phillies management:

1. Trading Padilla.

2. Some Guy they got for him proved useless.

3. Changing their plans for Floyd and putting him into the rotation this year because Some Guy didn't work out.

Another series of player moves comes to a dead end. It's not quite on the level of Rolen-->Polanco-->Urbina-->0, but it's a familiar pattern.

On second thought, maybe it is: Schilling-->Padilla-->Some Guy --> Floyd Flop --> 0.

Nice start for Utley and Madson.

Does Abreu *ever* miss on a 3-1 the guy is fun to watch!

How...*how* does anyone stand, much less actually enjoy nine innings of Vin Scully solo? It's like listening to a drone. The man just never shuts up, not for a second. I doubt he's closed his ancient jaws for more than a nanosecond since Sandy Koufax was pitching. Never heard a more self-satisfied bore in my life.

Well, thanks to Scully, in the span of four inning's I have learned that:

-PtB has a tatoo of a baseball on his lower leg

-Lieby once built a batting cage as a "youngster"

-Utley was a grade school teamate of Sean Bourroughs

-David Bell was born on the day that Buddy Bell debuted in the majors

So there's that...I like Scully because I grew wathcing up him and Garigiola on "Game of the Week" but I don't know if I could take him for a season. Four games a year is kind of nice though.

I find he is more enjoyable when you don't actually care about the teams...but c'mon, the guy called Game 6..."Here comes Knight and the Mets wiiiiin" Classic.

If Rowand doesn't win the Gold Glove, it's a travesty.

I LOVE Aaron Rowand.

I guess everyone's gone to bed, no one's defending Scully.

Well, the Floyd charade is over. I'll take bets from anyone on here that his major league career is over, or at least his major league career with the Phillies. Call it a total failure and move on. He should have been exiled at least a month ago.

Madson's not faring much better so far tonight. He cruised through the first three and then melted down with a vintage Floyd impersonation to honor his departed friend, walking everyone in sight and aiming a 3-1 fastball to Aybar, who predictably creamed it for a two-run double. I'd like to think Madson is mentally tougher than that, but I'm starting to wonder. And now that the Dodgers have inserted left-hander Odalis Perez in the fifth, I'll assume the offense is finished for the evening.

Kenny Lofton was nailed stealing by Lieberthal (temporarily saving the lead) and, even though he was clearly out from three different replay angles, proceeded to bitch the ump out about it. I enjoyed watching Lofton hit, but I sure don't miss his whiny act.

I am forced to eat my words yet again, kdon.

The guy is nonstop with the media guide factoids, isn't he? If he announced that "David Bell has an interesting way of putting on his jockstrap", I wouldn't be surprised. Some people call that stuff folksy. I call it completely superfluous banter.

"I guess everyone's gone to bed, no one's defending Scully."

What's up, RSB, are you blocking my posts? :-)

I think Madson has faired *way* better than Floyd last night...did you see the first 3 innings? That was more impressive than anything Floyd has done in two years.

He had one disaster inning...Floyd was one constant disaster. (And, yes, I did see that last HR)

...well, speaking of eating your words, Madson's night is turing into a disaster!

Seriously, can we cut a ball off, every single is turning into a double!

I was afraid Madson's good start wouldn't last. As soon as his command went, it was a matter of time before he lost the lead. And perhaps it was just a matter of time before he lost his command. Whoever the next Phillies manager is needs to have a doctorate in sports psychology.

Notice that when the first-place team gets runners on, they find ways to score them? And when the Phillies get them on...strike out, strike out, pop up. Just a coincidence.

Did this game get away in a hurry or what?? Sickening, this team is flat out sickening...

Well, since the game is falling apart I'll go back to Scully. The reason I like him is because of the monotonous rythm.

When I watch a game I'm usually thinking about a thousand things..pitch location, batting order, all sorts of stuff. Most announcers have a way of interupting the game because they have a punctuated delivery and are usually more worried about being clever than anything else.

I don't want someone like Joe Buck who makes sarcastic comments or someone like Wheels who distracts from the game. My ultimate preference would just to have the sounds of the game sans announcers, but baring that, Scully will do.

I think announcers who talk incessantly distract from the game more than anything. He's not even particularly insightful, as Wheeler and Buck can be. He adds nothing but the sound of his voice, which he's quite obviously in love with.

But I'm not trying to argue, we each have our preference.

It's not mental like it is with Floyd, and it isn't really command, either. Madson doesn't have the pitches to make it as a starter. I've said this. Hitters figure him out. These are 21-year-old rookies that are cranking balls out of Dodger Stadium. Everything those hitters hit in that 5th inning was crushed. That's because they know what's coming.

Madson throws a nothing curve he can't control and a nothing fastball. Good change. That's not enough in the starting rotation. It shows up better in the bullpen.

It's kind of a zen thing RSB, you have to *listen* to Scully but not *pay attention*.

When you really "get it" (especially during a 1-0 pitcher's duel), it's close to nirvana.

I don't know if I totally agree, Jason. If you look at the innings 1-3 and then 4-5, the difference is that Madson is getting his stuff over, and then he's not. It's all about command. When he throws strikes, he can get outs. When he's all over the place, he has to rely on his fastball too much because it's the only pitch he feels he has a chance to get over, and it's his least effective pitch by far.

Signs of life!

PtB is so clutch he can even drive in runs with a borken bat!


Burrell needed that. He's been quietly slumping lately.

They MUST hold on and win this game now.

Also from Scully:

-Nunez is known for his strong work ethic

-Rowand has 8% body fat, though Ron Cey had only 5% body fat

-Dellucci believes pro wrestling is real

Nice to see Cormier is the new 7th inning guy.
I don't think this is a fluke, his stuff looks good.

You forgot the relevant story about Dellucci getting Jose Cruz's autograph when he was 5...and now here he is playing against Jose Cruz, Jr.! Isn't it funny how life works out?!

See, you're starting to get it!

And Phinally(?):

-Rheal Cormier's grew up on a street with no name

-THe only three words Abreu knew when he came to the US were "hi" "goodbye" and "toilet"

-Arthur Rhodes no longer wears diamond earings because Omar Vizquel once complained in game that they were distracting

Call me crazy, but I think Scully is thebest int he biz.

If the business is yakking incessantly about nothing for three solid hours, than I guess he is the best.

That was really funny RSB. I don't use it often,

How're you all holding up there back East?

I'm ready to hear some intersting anecdotes about Flash Gordon, can't wait...

Totally agree with Weitzel about Madson. He doesn't have the stuff to be a major league starter. Batters figure him out pretty quickly. Additionally, his control is too spotty.

For all of the criticism that Floyd has taken on this site (granted he has had some poor results), Madson's numbers as a starter are even worse.

Madson's maximum value to this team is as a 7th inning guy who can pitch multiple innings if needed.

His brother was nicknamed "porkchop"!!!!

Where does Scully get this info? His brother nicknamed "Porkchop" was in the media guide?

I'd love it if during the post-game show, the player interviewed keeps interjecting useless information about Scully. "That's right Vin, it was a slider...when you were in your freshman year in college, your voice and diction professor said that you'd never make it as a pro, and noowww, 79 years later, here you are calling the play-by-play in Los Angeles. It just goes to show you that you never give up."

Nice come back win from the Phils. They showed me a little something tonight. I thought they were pretty much dead after that 5th inning explosion by the Dodgers.

I agree with the others. Madson would be most beneficial as a reliever, but at the same time, I don't see that happenening anytime soon with all the injuries to the starting staff.

Vin thinks outside the media guide. I think he writes his own leather-bound expanded edition every year and won't share it with anyone else.

Oh, yeah...I'm too busy berating Scully to comment on the end of the game. A nice win, in spite of Madson, and they finally did get some clutch hits in the deciding 7th inning. Good work by the bullpen and good night all around for the offense. The collapse is staved off for another night. Next up: Eude!

Wait, it can't end! I need to know more!!!

RSB, you'll have to fill me in on the personal pecadillos of Brito, Myers, Franklin, Vic, etc because I'm going to miss the next two games and Scully doesn't do road games.

Between the "W" and Scully, this was one of my favorite games of the year, the (Ben) Franklin types really missed out...let's go PHils!

Well unfortunately, I'm going to miss the next two as well. Much as I hate to miss Brito dazzle the world tomorrow evening. I'll keep up on GameTracker (and beerleaguer) when I can. Somebody else will have to report the first words Brito learned in English, or the life and times of Brett Myers' eyebrows.

RSB, did you really call Wheels insightful? *I'm just messin' with ya. I simply can't stand Chris Wheeler. And I know deep down inside you want Brito to pitch well, even though you have an obvious distain for him.

I'm usually in bed by 10-10:30, so needless to say I didn't make it past the 3rd inning...glad I missed yet another horrible start by our pitchers. Myers is our only legit pitcher. Lidle gives you a decent start, nothing spectacular, but he usually gives the team a chance to win. Other than that, Madson, Lieber, and Floyd have been down right terrible! That's why I'm really rooting for Eude to pitch well tonight, even if that means a 4.50 ERA, that's better than what we've been getting.

just got done watching the game (thank you, tivo)

took 3 innings for hitting coach eddie murry or manager g little to tell the team "hey, take some pitches..." typical '06 madson. the similarities between he and floyd are striking - can't find the plate consisently, no command with offspeed pitches, struggle from the stretch, hitters sitting on the "fast"ball that is too frequently up in the zone.

two great throws by lieberthal, even though both calls were missed by the 2nd base ump (lofton was safe, furcal was out)

j-roll obp now .307. how is this acceptable for a lead-off hitter? would any other team in the league besides the phillies and pirates let this continue?

i do enjoy the mocking of hall fame member vin scully. that guy sucks. who did he sleep with to get that job?

re: any other team - the Mets.

Reyes makes more happen that Rollins does...sorry to point that out.

ahh, intangibles. how could I forget.

I'm not trying to say Reyes is better suited for leadoff, becauase his #'s certainly don't suggest that, I'm simply saying he uses his speed a bit more than Rollins does. With that said, both could use a dip down in the order.

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EST. 2005

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