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Saturday, June 17, 2006


Since the spring I have been of the opinion that Gillick would not do anything major to improve this team this year, but instead, having some money to play with after Wolf, Lieberthal and Bell are finished with their contracts at the end of the season, will rebuild this team around a few of the young offensive players and get us some pitching.

In the meantime, if he wants to make a deal, the Angels want a bat and have pitching.

I want to offer a wholesale disagreement with those who defend Pat Gillick by insisting that he's just standing by this year, willing to throw it out with the garbage, but we'll *really* see his effects in 2007 or '08. Look, I understand that Ed Wade hamstrung this team with bad contracts and so on, but he no longer works for this organization. At what point does the new hire assume responsibility? He had an entire off-season in which to assess and try to add or subtract. He didn't need a season of "evaluation" to boldly discern that Vicente Padilla was a bad egg, or that Jim Thome had to go. I was baffled during the winter months when Gillick sat on his wrinkled hands for weeks on end, adding nothing more to the mix but a putrid mix of fringe players which has collectively turned out to stink as badly as the food processing plants around the ballpark in the humid summer air; meanwhile, whenever someone would stick a mic in his nonplussed face, he'd "candidly" admit the team wasn't good enough to win. How refershing, we all thought. And yet it did not lead to any corrective measures taken to improve the team. And it still hasn't. As people like to mention, even as bad as things are, the team technically is very much in contention, currently 4 games off the wild-card lead in mid-June. I cite this only to prove that there's enough talent present for something to have been done constructively with this team, despite David Bell, despite Charlie Manuel, despite Mike Lieberthal. On April 1, who among us thought this team had no chance, that it was merely a 'throwaway' year for Gillick to sit back and take notes and then begin to act after a .500 finish which would plummet the attendance by another 500k? I'd be willing to bet that the people who hired him didn't expect that, for one.

I'm more than tired of people giving this guy so much leeway, especially in light of how easily people dump on Manuel. I'm incredulous that people would say that Charlie Manuel, for all his many shortcomings, is nearly as responsible for where this team is than a GM who explicitly said the team wasn't good enough and went on to do the equivalent of jack you-know-what about it. Oh, but he "tried" to trade Abreu in the off-season. He tried, he tried. He didn't get it done. He continues not to get anything done. I again will point to the fact that he has not made one single move since the season began other than shuttle people around the PA Turnpike out of sheer necessity. Pat Gillick appears to be as creative in his aproach to making the Phillies a better team as a drooling zombie.

If, in fact, he believes this assembly of players is so hopelessly bad that his strategy is to merely let let them play themselves into oblivion just as a prerequisite defense for suddenly blowtorching the roster at season's end, then perhaps it all makes sense. Only I think the fan base basically knew this core was pretty much flawed and hasn't exactly been embraced during its tenure. I think people would have been considerably less than up in arms if the team has been blown up at any point during or after the previous three seasons rather than just coming back for the same tired, frustrating, and predictable result year after year. In other words, that suggestion to me is not a valid one.

I do not believe the Phillies were not intended to win this year. I do not believe Pat Gillick or anyone in the organization planned on conceding this season, whiling away the time before certain contracts expired. I think that is TOTAL b.s. Everyone knew this team wasn't good enough, but also that it wasn't so far away, so inherently unfixable, that the 2006 season needed to be considered a wash. I contend that more could have been done, that more could be done right now, and nothing is done and Gillick is proving to be even less of a standup guy about it than Wade. If you're asking me, well, what exactly could be done, I'll answer that I don't know *exactly* except that this organization simply does not react to reality, it does not respond when things fall apart. The patient approach has gotten them nowhere all this time and it will get them nowhere again. The idea is that instead of providing so many sound bites about being "frustrated" and playing "stupid" and then dazedly watching the same thing unravel before your eyes again the very next night, you DO SOMETHING about it. You let the fans know it isn't *acceptable*, not this year, and not six years, or thirteen years in a row. You don't just sit on your ass and your reputation and what is more, the fans should not be giving him a free pass and chalking it up to some speculative master plan which for all we know does not exist.

ha ha ha i'm one of the 7 owners of the team and you'll never know who i am! There is no other team in sports in which the fans do not know who the owner is. In fact many of you dopes think Montgomery is the owner but he's actually just a partner!!! We love being anonymous because we can have the city pay for a portion of our new ballpark then collect on all your dopes who buy tickets to see the Park not the team! And then pocket it all except for what we pay to our players, coaches and scouts. In fact we're so cheap our coaches and scouts are the 5th lowest paid. HAHAHA why pay those peasants $ to teach our young players fundamentals when they can eventually learn on their own. In fact we even talked in the offseason about signing a sports therapist to talk to Floyd and Myers to help them get over their mental issues. But they are mental midget adults and they should go see a Quack on their own free will. Dont tell the other owners but here's some quick math about how much $ we're pocketing....

30,000 avg fans per game x
($25 avg ticket + $15 allowance per fan for memorbillia, concessions and parketing)
= $1,200,000 per game in revenues
x 81 games = $97,000,000

Ok you simpletons can figure out that we're also collecting revenue sharing $ from MLB as well as advertising $ and radio & TV revenues!.

I'm giving you an estimate but we budgeted revenues to be about 15 million this year and have a payroll of $90 million means we're pocketing some serious cash which you dopes couldn't ever even imagine!

Mr. Richy Rich

That actually touches on an *excellent* point which is rarely noticed by anyone. Montgomery is merely the face of the ownership; it goes a lot deeper than that. This is a lamentable fact that goes all the way back to the day when the Carpenter family sold the team (down the river).

Monty hahaha he's a figurehead we throw to the wolves or you (retards) as well call you behind the scenes. Every night we tell monty to go talk to that dumb hillbilly manager and tell him to not saying in his press conferences so thats why he just stutters and bumbles on every word not knowing what to say. Then when everything gets all hot and bothered in the press they go to good old monty who is well educated and very good at saying nothing but making everyone feel good about what he didn't actually say. He's a very calming influence on the team and its very apparent with our record since he's joined the organization ..we're about a combined 200 games under .500 over the last 15 years. Monty is actually very much like Banner with the eagles, he goes on radio and tv shows and says absolutely nothing but is awesome at it nonetheless.

Screw the Carpenter family LOL thats exactly what we did when we purchased the franchise for what $15 million now its valued at over $350 million. I can't wait to sell and collect my 1/7th of that gain. But wait, you dumbasses want us to sell but we're not, well not in the foreseeable future as long as you come out to the games and pay for the tickets and other BS we sell you. Just please remember don't hate me because we're smart and rich. Hate yourselves because you've invested in a SMALL Market team as we still call it!

oh by the way, we're cutting payroll next season when we lose, Abreu or Burrell, Lieberthal (who we might just sign again to play with your heads), Wolf (just wait until he gets the unpaid medical bills for that surgery which we're not going to pay!), and Bell. We'll also be dumping Lieber by forcing him to retire and hopefully Gordon will be a good fit with a contender down the strech so we can get rid of that $ as well...We're looking at a payroll of about $75 million next year and you gotta love a staff of
1. 6 inning machine 5.00 era man Lidle
2. Myers because he can never be a #1 w/ that head
3. Hammels well he might need somemore time in AAA
4. Floyd
5. Name your cheap bargain basement free agent can anyone say Paul Byrd?

I would say we're going to be about .500 next year as well

RSB- you asked the question if anybody thought the Phillies had no chance at the beginning of the season and thought this season would be a wash?...well, my buddy and I over @ We Should Be GM's thought just that. In fact our theory was that Gillick wasn't exactly playing to win it all this season, and that he's waiting to get salary off the books next season by expired contracts then hit the free agent/trade market hard.

Book - Nope not our game plan to sign or trade for a high price free agent especially pitcher. We've had bad luck look at Millwood and Lieber. The 7 of us have decided the way to go in baseball now is to get guys like Lidle. We love Lidle he provides a solid 6 innings and only normally gives up 4 runs which means he's keeping us in the game. Thats all you can ask for in a pitcher. Lidle at 6 million is MUCH better return on our investment. Dont tell anyone but we may go hard for guys in that range. We only want a payroll of $75 million next year. We need to cut costs and raise ticket prices again to increase our bottom line. You have to remember us owners are getting alittle older now and have grandchildren to put through bording schools and college on the Mainline and over seas. So please don't get your hopes too high looking for us to improve the team. We have to look out for ourselves first. We have talked to Billy Beane who will also be adopting our theory on baseball and drop his "money ball" thing.

BTW - No more dollar hot dogs nites next year! We're getting killed on concessions when we have those dumb promotions for you overweight lard asses!

Yours truly,
Richy Rich

only way to show these stupid owners who's boss is to boycot the team back like we did after the '94 strike until the Vets last year. That showed them that they had to spend $ to get people to come out. Which the team did but it was a rouse because they wanted to bring people to the new stadium so they were forced to sign and trade for some high priced players. Based on insider info i've heard from Eskin & Stark - I'm under the impression they will slowly be cutting payroll to go back to the $50 - $60 million mark which they stayed at for a long time before the new stadium.

to prove what Book said earlier:

on March 29 he wrote: "This is the first season in quite some time I haven't been optimistic" then on April 4th predicted "85 wins and very pissed off fans."

on april 18th i reiterated: "I said before the season started...that it was my opinion that the Phillies had no intention to win this year, but rather their goal was to wait until next year, when Lieberthal, Bell, and Wolf will be gone along with their combined salary of $21.2 million"

the only thing i would change is the wording "intention to win," to something like "intention to change the team dramatically," which would have been necessary to win, by the way. this team is not a winning (ie playoff) team. it is the same team as the last couple of years. why would anyone think they would win this year, when their competition (mets) got better? their intention was to win between 80-90 games, put on a good face, make a "run" at it, keep attendance adequate, and move forward with improvements the next year (hopefully). that might be b.s., but i think its true, and it's a tough pill to swallow.

concerning pat gillick, his moves to this point have been horrible. no one can argue that. but he's been here less than a year. to blame him for this mess, at this point, is ridiculous.

Thanks for backing my previous comment up Stub. And just to clear things up for people on here, this isn't about us being right, it's about the Phillies fans needing to see the actual writing on the wall...we just don't have what it takes!

Book - than you for being so understanding. If all fans were like you then we could have a firesale like Florida and people would still come to the park, watch the games on tv and buy our memorabilia. So thank you and I hope you are truely patient as we strive for mediocricty and 90 losses for the next 5 years as we tout our great 87 mph
flamethrower Cory Lidle.

Jesus H Christ I remember about a month ago when Cory was up near the tops in K's and some people on this board were saying his becoming an Ace and has a new pitch which will make him a strikeout pitcher. People you need to get a grip. Baseball is very cyclical, a player is what he his, all you have to do is check his career statistics and as along as player is still in his prime he will probably achieve similar statistics to those which he has averaged in years previous. So for all you morons out there that think that Myers will eventually win 20 games your retarded.

Myers career average is less than 6 innings per start which directly relates to his inability to get decisions especially wins. To many times he can't go deep into games and the bullpen gets the decision. He will forever be a slightly better than average starter on most teams a 2 or 3 with 13 wins and about 11 losses and 160 k's in 180 innings.

Lidle is a below average pitcher if you take out his early career wins which were from relief roles. He will always top out with about 11 wins and 14 losses and will give you 180 innings but in NO means is he an innings eater as he is touted by everyone even that Meatball on postgame live.

Hamels is too young and only has 200 minor league innings. They rushed this kid up because they were afraid he would get hurt in the minors and never get a chance to prove it at the major league level. He is a cocky kid who doesn't want to throw his fastball and relies too much on the changeup. I thnk he will need at least 3 years of getting his brains beat in until he is able to learn how to pitch. Look at Glavine's early career, I believe Hamels' will parallel hopefully the Phils will be patient and stick with him.

Madson - the guy's arm will eventually fall off from that delivery. He only has 2 pitches which equates to a late inning reliever which he was for the last 2 years. Why is he still in the rotation? Because the team has nobody else.

Mathieson - Don't know much about him other than he supposedly can hit 96 mph in the minors. Which means he can hit 92 up here. I do believe Wolf was hitting 94 at Scranton then his couldn't hit 91 at the major league avg. So whenever you hear the Phillies tout about a guy throwing heat subtract a few miles per hour to be safe. He could be a closer eventually. I hear he only has 2 pitches as well.

Tejeda - I really believe this kid could have been a good pitcher this year if he wasn't traded for a steriod / HGH product in Delucci who won't hit more than 5 hr this year as i predicted the day of the trade and you morons said i was crazy.

Lieber - why would anyone think he's a #1? Take away his one 20 win season like 8 years ago and he's a .500 pitcher. WTF was the team thinking? I don't know but add it to the list of re-trends brought in to be #1's when they are barely #3's on anyother team.

Schilling - the Phillies had a #1 in SCHILLING and traded him for a bag of donuts and cup of coffee in Padilla, Lee and Figeroua. Now they have nothing to show for that trade and Schilling has gone on to be a 5 time allstar. Co world Series MVP and also won 2 world series. Oh by the way he's racked up over 175 wins since leaving. Great move!

Nunez/Fasano back-to-back. The Apocalypse is upon us!!!!

You would think they're going to be enshrined into Cooperstown when retired according to the bums doing the radio broadcast.

why don't u drop a bunt every once in a while rather than pop up the 1st pitch?

Hell has frozen over. Nunez and Fasano!

I never thought the Phillies were going to win the division this year, but like practically everyone else who posts here, I didn't deny that they had a *chance* to win, predictions notwithstanding. It wasn't totally out of the question. To this end, the Dellucci-for-Tejada trade on the eve of the opener seemed to cement the impression that yes, the Phillies were still going for it now; otherwise, such a trade made little sense.

I am not putting the team's failure squarely on Gillick, as that would in fact be ridiculous. But he is far from absolved from *all* blame at the same time. There was and is a good deal more he could have done to improve this team, and the few moves he did make should serve to render his judgement very questionable - enough so where it's not evident to me why people are willing to trust him to make the necessary moves in the future to pull the team out of its quagmire.

Again, I'll reiterate my point that this was not the Pittsburgh Pirates Gillick took over. It's a team that was one game removed from a playoff spot last year. With the right combination of moves, it could have been a very different season. Under Gillick's watch, the Phillies appear to have gotten demonstrably *worse* - regardless of the record, they have far more holes than they did last season - and that much is nobody's fault but Pat Gillick's.

RSB - I'll agree that everyday that manuel and the coaches stay in the job, it looks worse for gillick. I don't know what his reasoning is for NOT shifting the manager, but its not a good one.

But in his first year of running the team, until he fails to do anything good by the trade deadline, we should mostly leave him alone. the only hole that gillick contributed to the team was shifting padilla for nothing. He got us a good closer at a knock-down price. He didn't jump on expensive free-agent 'talent'.

The holes are ones Gillick didn't necessarily create, but ones he did a poor job of filling, and which he continues to show no indication of adequately filling.

I hate to say 'we don't know' but . . . we don't. The decision *has* been made, three times now, to try and fill pitching gaps from within. Brito got one more chance this season. Hamels got promoted. I'll concede that mathieson is a last throw of the dice, but he was pitching okay down there. In june, this is sensible.

(jeez, we're four down in the 7th with one on, would it kill manuel to take out bell, move nunez to third and put in utley?)

Sorry, my point being, I don't see too many trades happening right now. And they won't. so you make do from the minors.

RSB, your point about the phils being one game off is a good one. Padilla aside (and I do think it was a mistake to trade him early), the team's pitching shouldn't have been as dramatically bad as it know is. the holes in pitching (madson, lieber, floyd) - none of these were predictable offseason (okay, maybe floyd - but his ST showed him deserving of a shot).

The padilla trade cost us because it left us with no depth. but you could equally say padilla got shipped for inconsistency and not bothering his arse - which would show a lack of patience with slackers.

I'm hoping gillick looked at this team in the offseason, solved the big problem (thome) and decided to give it till the all-star break and then see what needed to be done. We won't know until the end of July. but dumping manuel now would make me feel a lot more confident - the team look beaten in june, and he can't help them out. If they're frustrated and lacking answers, its manuels job as manager to provide those answers. if he can't do that for them any more, he has to go.

I have similar concerns about the Phils ownership cutting payroll in 2007. Wasn't payroll in 2005 -- $94M and in 2006 its $88M ?
There is no guarantee the freed up money at the end of the season will be used for player acquisition.

That being said it is very frustrating to see this team get smoked again by the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Something needs to be done soon and although I haven't been on the fire Charlie Manuel bandwagon, its time.

How bout that Ryan Franklin. Ugh...

on the plus side, pedro martinez gave up a homerun to kris benson tonight.

Surprise -- Franklin gives up another HR.

Florida Marlins are now 2 games back of Phils in loss column.

yes Billy Mac you are right and like I said before we will be cutting it to probably $50 million if burrell and abreu go or 75 if one stays

What a week.
Sunday we get shutout by Nats.
Tues - Thurs 3 Game sweep by Mets including back to back 3 error games
Fri - Sat. Consecutive losses to Devil Rays at home.
Pawnking, tell me again how this team wins the World Series ?

There's nothing to say, another loss, another day. Will they win for me on Father's Day? Who cares. I used to care. The Titanic is sinking.

Going into the season, I thought the Phillies could be a good, contending team. I also thought it possible that they might only be an 80-some win team. In no way did I think they would be this bad. They've become like the Phillies of a few years ago. You don't watch wondering if they can win but wondering how bad they can look losing.

Not that it's any consolation, but the Atlanta Braves are an even bigger train wreck.

Mystery owner? Yeah right!

What a bunch of drool

Hey guys, lighten up, "it's a long season"...yeah, Pawnking hit the nail on the's going to be a real long season, but a season with no chance of contention. I have absolutely zero excitement watching this team squander games away. It's like Nat put it, "watching them to see how bad they're going to look losing", because they've become damn good at that!

By the way are some of you still willing to give Manuel Manager of the Year? I told you he sucked! You were fooled by the 13 out of 14 streak...tough to swallow ain't it?

I have always called for his head. Things won't begin to change until he is outta here!! Once he is gone, the replacement definitely needs to come from outside the organization, but are the Phils wise enough to not screw that one up?? I hope so...

Book, I can't speak for anyone else, but I never thought manuel was a great manager. But last year, down the stretch, he seemed to get intense, committed performances from players that we hadn't seen on this team for many a year. To turn around a season which was more miserable then this year suggested that he had something going with the players. So a manager gets the benefit of the doubt for that.

The only reason I want the guy gone is it is now at the point where the factor he had going for him seems to have deserted him.

The problem is the drafting and its philosophy.

Another sad thing is the Muts have been beaten the last 2 games against Baltimore. We should be getting a little better against the likes of Tampa Bay, but they look like the Yankess against us. Oh wait, the Yankees come in tomorrow. Ugh...

I urge everyone to read RickyJordan's analysis of the Phillies rotation above. Everything else is a sideshow. It's all about the rotation. The only thing I'd add to Ricky's accurate analysis is that Mathieson does not project as a major league starter because of his inability to command a breaking ball. He's young enough to fix that, but unless he does, he's strictly a middle-reliever.

Clout - thank you for your excellent review of my analysis of the rotation. I maybe out of the game but I am still a big fan of the sport and have stayed in the area since my retirement in '97. And yes I have contacted the Philies about a tryout and Mr. Amaro has put me in touch with some officals in Reading. I'm 41 but feel like i'm 35!

That's all well and good, Ricky, but you can stop flouting your pitching stats any time now. Those belonged to Ricardo Jordan, a journeyman pitcher who had a stint with the Phils in '96.

Will anything happen if this team is swept by Tampa? Crawford with a 2-run shot...

Nunez continues to look like crap...

What the heck is Fasano doing???? He had NO business even thinking of strectching that single into a double!! This team is an absolute joke. Blow it up, blow it all up...

Jon, you going to say that after rollins beat that pitch out? they seem to be playing with a bit of fizz today. Finally.

(But yes, fasano was dumb as be damned to try to make second on that hit).

Hey! Howard finally gives the Phils a lead! Can the pen hold it? There is hope!

Nice to see the Phils could FINALLY get to McClung. Hope the pen does not with in the heat today. We need to take at least one from the D-Rays.


I presume tomorrow's lead will now involve Manuel holding a team meeting and reading the riot act to the players, to which they duly responded. I hope not though - I'd rather see him dumped after saying 'I don't know what we did different, but we got a result.'

(crack)Pipe dreams, no doubt.

Yeah, the Phils definitely need a new manager, regardless if they win today or not. Whoever it is, they need to bring their own 3rd base coach. I cannot believe they decided to send Howard on the Delluci single. Better hope he is not hurt! I don't think he is, but it definitely was not worth the risk!

Why would my stupid manager even think of bringing Condrey? WHO into a game in the 8th inning when leading? Gordon hasn't pitched in over a week. I think he can go 2 innings. I long for the hold style baseball without pitch counts and reliever specialists

I love Clay he has a hot mustache and nice long legs. I bet he's made alot of $ in the minors and i heard he's available. Well big boy give me a call sometime 856-283-1811


hey he'll lead the team in wins (7) and an ERA over 6 after today. I'm so excited for the playoffs, can't you tell?

There are way too many ridiculous comments on this site about Gillick and his performance. He has been here less than 1 yr. Unlike football, where it is possible under the current format to go from 5-11 to 11-5 with a weak schedule and some savvy roster moves, it takes a while for a GM in baseball to have an impact.

The fundamental difference is that it takes at least 2-3 yrs for any MLB draft pick to make impact on the big league club. More if it is a kid is directly out of high school. It will be a while before any kid of judgement can be made on this year's draft or next.

As for his offseason moves, Gillick was savvy for the most part. His major moves, Gordon signing, and Thome trade, were solid moves that will definitely help this team down the road and give them financial flexibility. More importantly, the Thome trade opened up a spot in everyday lineup for Howard and acquired two legimitate pitching prospects who might help this club in 2 yrs.

Where Gillick can be criticized is for his weak bench moves and some of his minor trades. Only truly terrible signing was Nunez because he got a 2-yr deal that plays him alot for a backup. The rest are 1-yr deals and basically "Old Navy" type players. If they don't work out, you just throw it out next yr.

Also was not a big fan of some of his minor moves (Padilla and Tejada trade). If you are going to trade away starting pitching, especially Padilla, you need to get something in return. Even if Gillick had gotten two minor prospects for Padilla, it would be better than a piece of paper.

Where it will be really interesting to judge Gillick's performance is at this year's trading deadline and this offseason. Ideally, Gillick is able to trade some veterans (Cormier, Rhodes, Dellucci, Bell, Lidle) and pick up some prospects that will help this team in 1-2 yrs.

I wouldn't mind seeing Burrell or Abreu traded but it really has to be something worthwhile. A number 1 or 2 starting pitcher in MLB. That or maybe 2 stud prospects, preferably either C or 3B. The only nice aspect about Burrell/Abreu's high salaries is that it is unlikely the Phils will just be able to just dump them. Another team is going to want the Phils to pick up a portion of the contract, especially Burrell. No way Phils' ownership will do that especially since they are already eating a portion of Thome's contract.

I will join RSB in his criticism of Gillick if the Phils' continue on their current course and dump payroll in the offseason. If the Phils dont make a few decent moves in the offseason and come back with a payroll of $60-$65 million next yr in April, I will be BS.

In response to that, I'll again reiterate that I'm not holding Gillick responsible for the bigger picture, but I do hold him accountable for not doing a blessed thing to improve this team since acquiring Rowand and Gordon. The moves he made from January on have hurt the team more than they have helped, and there has been no real attempt to correct obvious flaws in-season. Is it Gillick's fault the team as a whole looks like it's on fumes? No, but this could be a better situation. I realize that you don't just pull good starting pitchers out of thin air, but there's no excuse to have this many truly poor or ineffective players on one team. If the bench players or middle relievers may have seemed incidental next to the overall talent scheme, the results of this season has proved it's far more important than that. Gillick tried to patch and fill to improve the depth and he's gotten the opposite result, and let me assure those who want Manuel gone yesterday that this has had every bit as strong an effect as Manuel's unsound judgement, if not more. His "major moves" may have proven sound, yes, but there was, and is, far more work to be done and in this respect Gillick clearly has faltered. I don't need a full season to make that evaluation. I don't see anyone else withholding judgement on the Phillies until the season is over. Why should I withhold it for Pat Gillick?

I feel your frustration RSB but alot of the pitching woes aren't Gillick's fault. This starting rotation is Ed Wade's creation. Gillick wasn't responsible for Myers' psyche issues, Lieber's ineffectiveness, Lidle's slight regression, and the failure of Floyd and Madson to pain out in the starting rotation.

If anything Gillick has shown he is willing to take some risks to address the starting pitching. He called up Hamels and Mathieson when both clearly need more time in the minors. Additionally, he tried to trade Abreu for a 1 pitcher in the offseason and no one was interested. Abreu is a very good player but his is not a MVP-caliber player and he makes too much money.

At some point, the inability of this team to not make the playoffs must be place on the players. The Phils already changed managers and fired their GM. I just think that the players on this team aren't good enough to win 90+ games. Simple as that. I think Gillick realizes that and will take the appropriate steps over the next 2 years.

Well, I hope so. He's the only hope we have for the forseeable future. However, I wouldn't say that Gillick has done much to inspire in me the kind of faith in him that most people are managing to retain in the face of the kind of hideous baseball we have seen in the past week, and for the majority of the season. (17-21 at home?!?) Yes, the pitching staff he inherited was weak, but if he's such a masterful GM, how could he not have done a *single thing* to improve the pitching in all these months...?

Ned Colletti did not need 2 or 3 years to turn the Dodgers around. I outlined his moves in a previous thread. I will also mention Wayne Krivsky , the new GM of the Cincy Reds. Since February, he has acquired starting catcher David Ross (who is hitting .341 with 10 hrs), Bronson Arroyo (8-3 2.5.1 era) and 2b Brandon Phillips (.304 14 sb). I also add Scott Hattenberg (.400 obp). And he has made moves with a $60M payroll. Reds won only 73 games last year and are currently 6 games over 500. Would Arroyo or Ross have helped this club ? Bottom line is Gillick made no moves in the offseason to improve a weak starting pitching staff -- other than signing alleged innings eater Ryan Franklin. Further he choose to count on 2 pitchers who didn't have 10 major league starts between them -- Madson and Floyd for 40 % of the team's starts. Besides unimproving the bench, he has done nothing as this team spirals out of contention through June other than calling up minor leaguers who aren't ready. Oh, that's right it is all Ed Wade's fault.

In part of a statement in which endorsed Charlie Manuel, Gillick said: "Our pitching has got them behind the first inning. Our guys are always feeling like they are fighting back. That's sort of the situation. If you have good pitching, then you have a different situation."

This has been his line since day one. He says it as if it's someone else's job to provide better pitching, seemingly without a trace of irony - just wholly resigned to ongoing futility. I just do not get him.

That was me, sorry. As if you couldn't have guessed.

I am certainly not holding Gillick blameless for the sad state of affairs, especially pitching. What I’m saying is that he knows it’s bad and prefers not to do anything about it until the offseasn. Why?
1) The Phillies need much more than a #1 starter to make the pitching staff playoff caliber. So even if he made a big trade to acquire one during the season, no doubt costing the Phillies a lot in talent given up, I don’t think it’s going to turn the team around.
2) When you are buyer during the season, you overpay. On the other hand, if you’re a seller, you can get good value for average players that other contenders covet. So if Gillick makes any deals at the trade deadline, they will not be to resucitate this year’s team, but to get players for the future.
3) During the offseason he will have much more financial flexibity, there will be quality FAs available, and the market will be that much more open to deals. You are extremely limited in what’s available during the season, and often take mediocre talent out of a desperate need to fill a hole.
4) Gillick could not possibly have been able to evaluate the team’s players just during his first offseasn and spring traing. He has to watch them play, at least up to the all-star break, to know who to keep and who to jettison. Making any deals early in the year involving any of the key players would have been very risky unless he was getting a ‘no brainer’ quality player in return. Just ask yourself how much your opinion of certain players has gone up or down since spring training. I would say quite a few players have a substantially different perceived value than before the season started.

For fans and especially paying customers I think it’s shameful that management is basically telling you that the team is going to sink or swim with the players (and manager) they have now.

And to be honest, I really hope I’m wrong about this. I would be as happy as anyone if Gillick turned around and pulled a blockbuster deal that successfully turned things around this year. Yes, there’s still time to do it.
I don’t think it will happen, though.

Good points George, and surely I am not asking for or expecting a 'blockbuster' which probably would only milk dry what's left of the farm system. I am only observing, along the lines of what Billy Mac was saying, how other teams have pilfered smaller names out there like Arroyo or Orlando Hernandez for very little, while we get nary a rumor in Philly. (Arroyo, for one, was eminently avaliable all spring.) The pitching just crumbles into so much sawdust by the week and all Gillick does is shrug his damn shoulders. I'm not asking for Dontrelle Willis or Barry Zito. I'm asking for some kind of recognition that something needs to be addressed, and more than verbally. A lesser pitcher is not going to turn the season around, true, but it's better than having turn to double-A pitchers. It's a sense of actually *trying* that I guess I'm looking for. I think it would alleviate everyone's frustration a little if only it were demonstrated that this baseball season matters to management as much as it does to all the rest of us, whether we think they can win or not.

I don't really what is out there along the lines of the players I mentioned, and I know there can't be many who would actually be helpful (I'm not advocating the Paul Abbott/Jose Lima approach), but I'm not the one being paid to be creative about solving problems. I am beginning to wonder how unfair of a label "Stand Pat" really was.

Well, if I was looking for decent pitching, I would try to put together a package that includes Pat Burrell and try to get either Santana or Escobar from the Angels. LAA needs a bat, and Burrell can play DH there, for which he is better suited. Escobar is a decent match in terms of contract, so the Angels would not be picking up a large salary increase. I think Escobar is signed for 3-4 years, so this would not be a rental. And with Colon coming back, the Angels actually have too many starters.
Although I personally think Santana might be the better pitcher, Escobar is the more obtainable player, and he is very close to Santana in quality.
The interesting thing to learn from the Angels: even with all that great pitching, they are not going anywhere because they have no offense. You need both, and the Phillies would be wise to keep that in mind before decimating their lineup to get pitching.

Billy Mac you need learn some facts and what the hell you are talking about.

Arroyo was traded for Wily Mo Pena. Sox only made this move because Pena is young, cheap, and a potential replacement for Trot Nixon next year. Phils don't have on any young outfield prospects (or hitting prospects for that matter) that would have interested the Sox. Only thing the Phils and Sox discussed was Abreu for Clement. That would have been a great move for the Phils since Clement has only been one of the worst starters in MLB. As for Ross and Philips, they have both caught lightning in a bottle. Baseball is littered with first-half phenoms and second-half duds. Maybe Philips finally shows his potential for an entire season but he will probably come back down to earth.

As for Colletti, what the hell are you talking about. His only brilliant move was to bring in Nomar. His other major acqusition, Furcal, has been a complete bust so far. In fact, Colletti is very similiar to Gillick in that he brought in a number of former Giants players this offseason (Brett Tomko, Ramon Martinez, Kenny Lofton, Bill Mueller, and Kurt Ainsworth).

The young players that are playing well for LA had nothing to do with Ned Colletti or even DePodesta. They were mostly drafted 2-3 years ago. LA farm system is stacked unlike the Phils' farm system. If you want to place blame, look for Ed Wade.

I am not related to Gillick but he was a proven track record and the Phils have played less than half a season of baseball under his watch. If the Phils are even worse next year, then people will have a legimitate gripe about Gillick.

The fault, dear Billy Mac, lies not in our stars but in the Phils' players. Tired to hearing them say that they need to play better. Someone on that team needs to say they have been playing like crap, making fundamental mistakes (like missing the cutoff guy), and that is not acceptable.

Note all those ex-Giant players brought in by Colletti. They may not have gotten too many people excited, but these are precisely the kind of parts that have helped LA along with their young players. The Dodgers have gotten significant contributions from all of them, yet Gillick's ideas for role players have turned out to be complete bombs. That's the difference between a GM having an immediate impact and a far less positive impact. Maybe LA had the kids to work with from somebody else's tenure, but the Dodgers were in the dumps last year, and they virtually changed the face of their team. You can't reasonably say Colletti's had nothing to do with their turnaround just because he wasn't the one who drafted the young players.

We need to stop heeding 'track records' and take a look at what's going on here, which in short is a whole lot of nothing. Gillick doesn't get a free pass until October in my book.

MG, No need to get hostile. We are all phans here, just expressing opinions.

GeorgeS, Angels just signed Escobar to a 3 year extension like 3 weeks ago. I was watching this contract situation as this was someone I thought could be available prior to the trade deadline. But I agree the Angels are a team that has starting pitching and are in need of bats. I also like Santana, but young, cheap, and good is generally a tough commodity to get. Angels are trying to offload Jeff Weaver, and probably would be willing to take on portions of his salary. No thanks.

Weaver (Jeff) is a non-starter as far as any deal with the Angels, as far as I'm concerned.

I believe Escobar had put pressure on the Angels to either re-sign him or trade him, so they resigned him, but that could actually make him more valuable in trade than if he was a rent-a-player. He was also being jacked around between starting and relieving, which he didn't like (I'm not an Angels fan, so someone closer to the team can refute that). But they don't need him, and he's now making sizable dollars, so I could see LA moving him for the right package.
Victorino or Delucci might better fit the Angels' needs than Burrell, although I'm guessing Burrell would waive his no-trade to go to California. Victorino can play CF and Delucci is a LH hitter. If the Phillies offered Abreu, then I'd ask for Escobar and a prospect or two.

One of the good things about Escobar's new contract is that it might keep a team like Atlanta away from him. They are also going to be sellers at the deadline and they are also looking for pitchers. But they currently have a tighter budget than the Phillies.

I'm not getting my hopes up.

People need to give up the Abreu-Burrell for a #1 or #2 pitcher, it's not going to happen. A #1 or #2 starting pitcher is worth way more then aging corner OF's who can't play defense. Victorino or Dellucci for Escobar? I’m a Victorino guy but come on, that’s ridiculous.

Blow this team up, fire then manager, revamp the entire scouting department, and get some new blood in here that can turn this around. Detroit, Cleveland, and the White Sox all turned their franchises around this way. Not by blockbuster deals at the trade deadline. It’s not going to be easy, it’s not going to happen in 1 or maybe even 2 years. But it has to be done. The sooner the better.

I'm a man of little conviction. A few days ago, I stated that I would stop looking at the standings. Well, the Phillies won on Father's day, and what did I do this morning? After reviewing the box score. I looked up and checked the Phillies spot in the standings. I'm like an addict. This week, I felt like I kicked the habit. The Phillies were just a temporary high when they were winning. I thought I had cut the habit, yet the Phillies beat the lowly Tampa Bay team after dropping two to the same sorry team, and I find myself wanting to get back into the illusion that this team can get back into contention. My case is hopeless.

BillyMac, you're a great Monday morning QB. David Ross has been a complete bum of a backup catcher until this year. Brandon Phillips had a ton of potential but 2 teams got tired of his act quickly. Arroyo never had an ERA under 4 in his career. Those moves look great now because you've got some numbers to look at. Sometimes you get lucky and that's exactly what the Reds GM got.

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EST. 2005

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