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Tuesday, April 25, 2006


always fun to look these guys up on the baseball cube...

looks like we had a nice season from Asencio in 2001 Clearwater: 12-5, 155 IP, 2.84 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 7.13 K/9, 4.06 BB/9.

that same year, Madson went 9-9 with a 1.58 WHIP and 3.90 ERA; Utley hit .257 with 16 HR and 59 RBI in 155 games.

I remember Miguel, after a good year 2001 at Clearwater he was drafted as a rule 5 player by the Royals. In 2002, if I recall, the Royals started hot with a bunch of young hurlers including Miguel and Runelys Hernandez. Of course , the Royals then faded.

Wrong, the Royals started hot in 2003.

Asencio wasn't a particularly good pitcher for the Royals at any point, and is now coming off arm surgery and a long rehab, of course. Then again, Billy Traber was a subpar pitcher coming off arm surgery who hadn't pitched since 2003, and we certainly didn't manage to knock him around.

I think Gavin Floyd has showed promise. Tonight will be a good test, playing at home against the Rockies missing their star, in a game where he should get nice run support.

Amazingly, we don't have the same blood lines, Martin. And a correction from the post, which has been updated with the fix: I meant to say "Anything BELOW Double-A." Reading is, of course, in our backyard.

What gives with this Reading Phillies all-time team voting? No love for Marlon Byrd. Little love for Julio Franco. Randy Wolf? He was barely here!

This is only Floyd's 4th start. Need to give him at least 10 starts before you have a better indication of what valuable he will provide the rest of the year.

no love for marlon byrd? how about the lack of dap given to catcher mike "spanky" lavallier! i guess he would get more votes if he practced "stral travel."

i mean, lavalliere, practiced and astral.....don't drink and type kids.

I missed the first 4 innings, was Floyd that bad or was it the wind? It looks bad

does anybody else use any clue what their logic is behind which broadcast they use? seems like a total crapshoot to me.

I'm not sure. I used it last year occasionally, but my connection here at college is really bad for some reason so I stopped bothering. In all the times I used it, I don't remember getting the Phillies' broadcast a single time.

I use (shhh dont tell my boss) lol...99% of the time it is the away broadcast team as comcast doesnt allow their signal on satellite or the web.

As much as I liked Gavin Floyd two years ago, the kid appears to have no confidence whatsoever. He comes across as very timid while on the mound. Does he ever laugh or get a mean or determined streak in him? He looks like a deer in headlights for every pitch of every inning he is out there. Maybe I am missing it, but has he ever shown any sign of emotion while pitching or in the dugout with any of his teammates? He hasn't been the same since they threw him in the pen last year (unless you want to count spring training...but I am starting to wonder if that was luck more than anything while down in Clearwater). Hopefully he can turn it around, sooner rather than later, but I think he really needs to change his demeanour before he will start having the success he is capable of. Just my opinion though...

weirdest the rockies broadcast when I first started watching. had to restart my computer, and now that I loaded up again, i have comcast. I'll take it, I guess.

A notable improvement with this year: they have the Comcast telecasts, but they use the RADIO broadcast of the home team. Meaning we don't have to listen to opposing teams' announcers when the team is at home. Then again, we get an earful of Scott Graham, which is perhaps just as bad.

I doubt Floyd will survive in the rotation if he has another game like this one. It's evident that he doesn't have what it takes, still.

Good game from two guys I've been down on recently: Geoff Geary and Sal Fasano.

Foolish ABs in this game. Howard, Bell, Rollins, even Abreu.

When will Manuel figure out that it's completely ridiculous to pinch hit for the pitcher with Nunez and then have him bunt? I mean, tonight is obviously an egregious example because he popped it up, but why not a) use a better hitter or b) just have the pitcher bunt, who has probably at least as good?

Jimmy has not been anything like hit-streak Jimmy lately. Even some poor fielding plays tonight.

With the bullpen performance after the 5 spot in the 4th inning, it was a winnable game. Way to disappoint in the clutch, guys!

Someone posted "give Floyd at least 10 starts."

No way you can give him more than one or two more starts without him showing some serious progress. His career has become boarderline absurd --- one good start, three bad. With a fistful of other "prospects" on the farm they can't just keep throwing Gavin out there.

ok - think positive - if floyd stinks it just means hamels has more of a chance to be good. i'm strictly playing the percentages of two "can't miss" prospects both not missing.

Hey Tim, this is the Phillies. Of course they can both miss.

Two steps forward, one step back...or is it vice versa?

I REALLY don't like the fact that with Utley at 2b Howard took a called third strike. Gotta be more aggresive in that situation.

I agree with the description of Floyd. I saw a replay after the HR and he looks totally lost out there. Maybe he just can't handle the pressure.

Damn shame that we couldn't win this one and pick up some ground on those stinking Mets.

Also, what's with Elmer letting Geary hit for himself with guys in scoring position? Granted, because of the wind he managed to get a hit, but that's poor game tactics (again). And I also am puzzled with this Nunez bunting when he's ph-ing. Hell, the pitcher could do that.

with our overworked bullpen (and the unavailable Santana), I think it was probably the right call (or at least not an obviously wrong call) to leave Geary up for the second AB. it was only the 5th inning, after all.

I guess you do have a point there, ae.

But the way this offense goes, I think they need to maximize every scoring chance that they have.

Is anybody else noticing that 1) Floyd has only two pitches; and 2) he tips his curveball? As for the two pitches, the fastball is mediocre, and he can't get command of his curve. What happened to his changeup? I never saw it last night. As for the tipping, check the next start, or go look on if you have it. He hesitates slightly and drops his body down as he lifts his leg and he curls his arm in behind his leg just a bit. You can almost see the Rockies' batters eyes light up when they pick this up. His fastball motion is much smoother and more fluid. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but that's what I see.

Thanks for pointing that out - I haven't seen it. I'll look for it next time.

Definitely agree that Floyd needs to develop an effective third pitch if he is going to stick as a starter. No starter can last with just a fastball and a curve.

Granted Floyd was awful again last night but he needs a few more starts. Sending him to the bullpen won't unfortunately help him or the Phils. Phils have invested alot of time & money into him and it is too early to give up on that investment.

As for Geary hitting, in addition to Santana, says Rhoads was not available either.

You cannnot give Floyd too much more time. If they do, the message is "We're looking to the future." And if, indeed, this year is a wash and its simply a chance to see how a guy like Floyd can do, then it raises a bunch of questions, including:

Why is Fassano on the team with Ruiz in AAA?

Why did we trade a young pitcher for a pinch-hitting 4th or 5th outfielder?

Why isn't Victorino playing more, instead of that outfielder we traded for? That would put Roberson in Philadelphia and Bourn in Scranton.

Why are we going with a guy like Geary over a guy like Yoel Hernandez?

Why isn't Brito getting another look? He's pitched better in the bigs than Flyod thus far.

It would also mean some of the following could be coming:

Unloading Lieby (one year left I believe) for young talent in July. And possibly doing the same with Lidle, Bell, Delucci, even Abreau or Lieber. Although I'm not sure what our "ace" has left on his contract.

The point being if the braintrust is just trying to get some youg guys experience that's fine. But do it. Don't leave guys who will not be here in two years out there for the illusion of a competitve team.

Jon, I completely agree with your assessment. He looks afraid and he pitches afraid. And absolutely no emotion at all. Is he related to Travis Lee?

As for Geary hitting, Manuel had no choice with 2 pitcher unavailable and his starter not getting out of the 4th. They need at least 8 innings out of a starting pitcher, and fast.

Let me answer your questions...

1. Ruiz sucks too.
2. Because Gillick thinks he is still in the AL
3. How could either of them play more since they hardly play. Plus...Victorino sucks.
4. Geary isnt awful, he did a good job last night. Give the guy a chance. As to Hernandez I do agree he is worth a look.
5. Agreed.
6. U r on crack if u think anyone will give us young talent for a 33yr old catcher who can soemwhat hit, cant control a staff and is making 7m.

What is up with Floyd's fastball? It is mostly at 89-90, with a couple up to 92 and some at 88. When he was dominating in the minors, we were all told he threw mid-90's. Was that just prospect over-hyping by the Phils and the media to get us excited? Inflated radar readings? Or is there some issue that has caused him to lose velocity? Unfortunately for me, both games I have attended this year have been Floyd stinkeroos (2.2 IP the first time, 3.1 last night).

let me get this straight, cholly: sal fasano gets pinch-hit for on a night he already has two doubles, but geoff geary gets to hit and abraham nunez is sent up to bunt which he obviously cannot do. explanation(s)?

That Dude, allow me to respond.

1. You're right. Ruiz kind of sucks. But does he suck that much more than Fassano. I chuckle at theh fan club as much as thhee next guy.. And Sal seems like a great drinking buddy. But seriously.

2. Too bad the Phils are not in the AL. Then we could see Bell DH and bat 5th (that was a bad joke).

3. Victorino does not suck. He's not great. But he doesn't suck. If he played for Florida or Pitttsburgh he'd be considered "a young player that can be a piece of the puzzle for a long time."

4. Geary did look good last night. But there's a few people that deserve a look if/when Geary/Fultz/Santana struggle.

5. I'm glad we agree on something.

6. I don't smoke crack. But come late July/early August guys like Lieby and Bell suddenly become "experienced players who can put a team over the top." I think a team like the Yankees, Angels or Cubs would take at least part of a contract to add "a proven veteran."
Look at the Thome trade. Gillick managed to get the world champ's centerfielder and two solid "prospects" for a guy many considered done.
Or maybe someone put crack in my coffee.

Of course, none of this was the point of my original post. My point was if the brass believes this is a "rebuilding year" or that this team cannot win now then they should use people like Floyd, Brito, Victorino, Roberson, Ruiz, etc.

But the Delucci trade makes no sense it that context. That trade -- and all it has led to -- says to me the that the front office is making a push now.

And of course it's not even the end of April. So who knows.

Please realize my crack comment was made in jest. Sometimes the written word doesn't convey my good natured ball busting...however..

I will vehemtnly disagree with you on Victorino. What has he ever done anywhere to be described as a "a young player that can be a piece of the puzzle for a long time."?

He never batted above 300 or was above 350 obp in the minors until he was a 24yr old playing double A. To me he is the prototypical triple a tweener, really good for 3a, but not good anough for the majors.

A tweener was all Jason Michaels was supposed to be. You never know ...

I think there is a big difference there. j-Mike stats at every level of the minors suggests progressiona s a ML player, plus he was a college player where his colege history played out well with his initial stats int he minors.

There is a difference between giving a "high-value" prospect like Floyd more time and a marginal prospect. It doesn't mean you are giving up on the season if you give Floyd some more time to develop.

Fasano even said after the game that he hopes that struggling is part of what a rookie goes through and hopefully he will be a better player at the end of the season.

Re: Victorino & Floyd. Trask, I'm not sure what you base your opinion on, but you need to look at Victorino's lifetime major league numbers, including his performance so far this year. He's an AAAA player at best, but most likely will wind up a Triple-A lifer. He isn't remotely as talented as Dellucci and the MLB stats bear that out. As for Floyd, obviously 4 starts isn't remotely enough. But if the Phillies are a contender, how many more starts can they afford? He's only 23 and never had a full season in AAA. The ideal solution would be to give him a year at Scranton but the problem is there is no one in the minors who is currently ready or talented enough to do better. Makes the Padilla trade look even worse, huh?

....and the Tejeda trade, while we are at it. I don't care what Tejeda's current AAA numbers look like, he was a helluva lot more dependable as a spot starter last year than Gavin Floyd has been this season. And Tejeda was unflappable. So, he walked guys and gave up fly balls. At least he spread them out over a few more innings.

I am all for given Floyd a chance, but two things should happen:

1. He needs Lieberthal in there catching him, not Fasano. The last thing Floyd needs is some guy thumping him on his chest to fire him up. From all appearances, he needs just the opposite, i.e., to settle down.

2. Manuel has to set some sort of limit on how many games he will allow Floyd to start if there is no appreciable improvement. The Phillies have been giving away a lot of games already and cannot afford to do that much longer...if at all.

Tom, how much more time would you give floyd if option number 3 happened: lieber and madson improve?

I'd be willing to be Manuel does have a limit on how many more games in which he's willing to see Floyd combust, he's just not revealing it so as to not put any pressure on the guy.

To continue to roll Floyd out there and let him take his lumps would be disproportionate with the implication of the Delucci trade. If you think you are close enough to send young pitching away for "experience" on the bench, then you are close enough not to have another young pitcher, top draft pick or not, squander games and bullpen pitchers for you. This isn't the Royals here. There is no place right now for letting a "prospect" gain experience. Either the team is projected as a contender, or it isn't. And to me, if Floyd goes out and does this again in his next start and they leave him in the rotation, that tells me that management doesn't think much of the team's chances to win this year.

It's pretty clear to me that Gavin Floyd is the next Pat Combs. If he's going to turn it around, it's not going to be at this level. His psychological disadvantage is not going to be suddenly or gradually reversed in this kind of environment. If he continues to struggle in the minors, I would say it's time to write him off and move on. And that is even considering that he does have major-league stuff. The idea of "pitch, don't think" isn't going to get him anywhere; if you don't think about what you are doing and have a plan on the mound, you are going to get torched. The problem isn't that he "thinks", it's that he's just afraid.

...willing to bet, that is. I'm not willing to be Manuel.

Clout wrote
"Victorino's an AAAA player at best, but most likely will wind up a Triple-A lifer. He isn't remotely as talented as Dellucci and the MLB stats bear that out. "

Victorino has 100 MLB ABs. Quite a small sample to project his career. I do know Victorino is a better baserunner, better fielder, and has a better arm than Dellucci. At 25, I think he can become a better player; we'll see.

Agreed, 100 MLB ABs is a small sample. Except for one year, his Minor League stats aren't particularly impressive, which is why he's been through 3 organizations at age 25. Also agreed that he runs and fields better than Dellucci. The problem is his bat. I don't think he'll hit and the stats bear that out. But, you're right, we'll see. At 25, he's not young in terms of realizing his potential.

Oisin: I don't have a specific number in mind, but the Phils cannot afford to watch Floyd struggle more than a couple of more starts.

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