Madson remains unimpressive in starting role

Though he earned the win, Ryan Madson is still trying to prove himself worthy of the starting rotation.

Nothing has come easy for Phillies starting pitching.

The blasphemous idea of keeping Ryan Madson in the bullpen doesn’t seem quite so profane after another brief outing last night. Beerleaguer has always maintained Madson has a pitch selection hitters will figure out quickly. Sub-par fastball and plus change both come over the top. The curve, still a project pitch, must be easier to spot because of his delivery. Toss in suspect command, and it's just not enough.

There were other factors last night. Madson and Mike Lieberthal weren’t on the same page, and because of that, the game slowed down. During the telecast, the broadcast crew said Lieberthal is not used to asking for the curveball quite as much in Madson’s new starting role. It also appeared that Madson was bothered when calls weren’t going his way.

In five innings, Madson gave up 10 hits, 4 runs and a walk to lower his ERA to 8.05. As a result, Madson and Gavin Floyd, the two experiments in the starting rotation, have given the Phillies similar results, but in slightly different ways. With Floyd, he cannot find command of his fastball and does not trust his curve. With Madson, hitters appear to be figuring out his pitches. Both do not seem to have enough pitches in their repertoire to go deep into games, and they have not been able to pitch out of trouble.

Comments in the previous thread wondered if it was time to consider moving Ryan Franklin into the starting rotation. One response said that would be "a recipe for disaster."

Though Floyd and Madson are still baking in the oven, we’ve tasted some bitter dough.

Comments

[Tim]

franklin is not the answer. there is only one man who can save us (w/in the organization) and i dare not say his name.

[Steve T.]

Did anyone notice how Gordon, in the ninth, gave Lieby "the chin" a little, basically telling him to move over for the pitch, to the left? I was subtle, but I swear I saw it. Man, you can't have a pitcher directing traffic for the catcher ...
Both MAdsen and Floyd need more time before I write them off, but I agree it's otugh to watch at times.
I will never like David Bell, and will always think he's a bumb. But, if he can give even a little bit, I'll take it. The Phils need that from him.
Another impressive outing from Burrell, who drove in runs and had great at bats once again. st

[ae]

yeah, maybe Franklin would be a disaster in the rotation. it wouldn't surprise me. but when the bar is set at an 8.00 ERA, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't be an improvement.

I was extremely doubtful of Franklin before the season, but he has clearly been one of the better pitchers on our staff so far this year. I don't think we can or should write off Madson or Floyd, but Floyd especially is just lost up on the mound. at a certain point what's best for a developing young pitcher is not necessarily what's best for the team.

[Oisin]

Harsh but fair assessment Jason. I'm more confident of Madson making the grade because of his two year's major league experience. I also could've sworn he was meant to have another good pitch which he hadn't used much in relief because he was only ever relying on fastball, curve and change-up

I think he's always going to a pitcher who gives up hits - looking at his numbers on baseball cube, all his starting seasons he kept giving up about 40-50 bbs and 120-130 K's. We know he's good for goundballs. As both you and Tom Goodman have said, IP is the key for him - only once did he pitch over 160 or so innings - but you could say better than most whether that was the minor-league organisation treating him carefully.

If he can just stretch to 7 innings, i'd be happy with how he's going this year. Another cory lidle at #5 wouldn't be the worst.

[IUP Philly Fan]

Gavin Floyd drives me absolutely insane. There are times when you see flashes of how great this guy could be, and then there are times when you just want to strangle the guy. After the kind of spring he had, Floyd deserved another shot in the rotation. If he can stop walking people and start getting people out, I think he has the stamina to go into the late innings.

As far as Madson goes, he is definately a good reliever. Time will tell if he can be a good starter. Madson does have good groundball power so that has helped him get out of trouble in the past. Lieberthal needs to do a better job of calling pitches so Madson doesn't get too predictable.

Ryan Franklin, so far at least, has been impressive at least to me. He has gotten people out fairly consistantly and even though I know I'll probably be upset with him later on in the year, for now I am happy with his contributions.

[RickSchuBlues]

I think Madson's a lot better and generally going to be more dependable than what he's shown his last couple of starts. He was groomed as a starter and his future is as a starter. I know it was only spring training, but he was dominant against strong lineups in a number of those games; it's a matter of his stuff being sharp and staying ahead in the count. I recall watching a game against the Pirates in March, and those guys had no chance against his curve. If he can throw the curve and change effectively, his fastball is decent enough to give him a solid repertoire. I don't think he has the confidence issues that plague Floyd. I believe that Madson will solidify himself and be in the rotation all season.

Franklin is not my favorite guy, and he'll make Cory Lidle look like Roy Oswalt, but I'd be in favor of sticking him into Floyd's rotation spot rather than leave the bewildered kid in there, or rather than rush Hamels up; I don't see where he's suddenly some kind of invaluable cog in the bullpen that can't be replaced. Who's to say Clay Condrey couldn't step into that role and give them the same kind of outings?

[Adam]

It's been said by many, but it's true: while you can say that keeping Madson/Floyd in the rotation too much longer could sink the beginning of the season, but I don't think madly shuffling everything after 4-5 starts is a recipe for success.

I give them 10 starts each, then I think it'll be time to come back and evaluate. Almost everyone seems to have faith in Madson, and I, too think that he'll get better over the course of the season season--transitioning back to starting, working on the curve and pitch selection, and so on. We've seen him deliver some lethal stuff in relief, and not 100 mph fastballs and crazy sliders like Wagner, but an actual repertoire that reflects the fact that he was a successful minor league starter.

Floyd, I'm more worried about. I think he might get straightened out at some point in his career, but this really might not be the year. Though if his mind is what's behind the problems, it's best to deal with it now rather than later, as we don't want him to lose so much confidence it wrecks an entire career.

[MG]

People are overreacting to the starts of Floyd's and Madson's seasons. Granted both guys have shown very little but you should never evaluate a starter after just 4 starts (especially if they are rookies).

People also seem to forget that pitchers aren't yo-yos during the season. If you move a guy from the starting rotation to the bullpen or vice versa, you generally have to leave him there for the rest of the season.

While I think Madson have more value as a reliever, he needs another 3-4 starts to see what he has as a starter. If he continues to be as bad, move him to the pen in late May/early June.

As for Floyd, he would have to go down to the minors. His psyche seems to fragile to take a move to the bullpen. Too bad he can't be developed like Earl Weaver used to develop pitchers by putting them in the bullpen for a year or two.

The alternatives at 4 or 5 are pretty limited. Guess you move Franklin to the pen or call up Brito. Not too crazy about either move. I absolutely do not want them to move up Hamel and damage his development process. Too important to screw up his development.

[RickSchuBlues]

Starter or reliever, Franklin just sucks. You feel like it's just luck when they don't score off him.