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Monday, December 12, 2005

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» Rangers acquire Vicente Padilla from Rangerfans.com News
The Rangers have acquired Vicente Padilla from the Phillies for a player to be named later. Padilla has one year left of arbitration eligibility (according to my brother who follows the Phils and lives in Philly). He made $3.2 Million... [Read More]

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This was a horrible move, unless the player to be named later is Hank Blalock or Francisco Cordero, and Gillick was lying and they actually are going sign a proven starter who is used to winning like Jarrod Washburn. How come they haven't considered Jason Michaels for Miguel Batista?

I'm a Ranger fan. You will not get Cordero or Blalock for Padilla. Cordero isn't even being shopped, and if we were to give up Blalock, we'd want Lieber as well, plus probably some other prospect.

seriously jay, are you on espn's payroll? how do you get this stuff up so fast? the phils must have gotten laughed at in dallas when they were shopping vinnie pads around, why else woudl they let him go for no mare than a proecpt when they are incredibly thin at starting pitcher? they must have found out he was worth nothing in the trade market.

Oy.... Ok Mr. Rangers fan, we will not get Blalock or Cordero, but I would be shocked.... SHOCKED... if we do not get a valuable commodity in return. For all his faults, Padilla has experienced too much success, is too young, and too affordable (even at a projected $4 mil) to give up without getting some value; particularly since Gillick is new and likely not to be as influenced by Padilla's past behavior.

Also, if a ready for action prospect is not returned, one can bet Gillick sees something else forthcoming (Morris?) to replace Padilla. Very interesting

Morris is already gone and he wasn't that good anyway. Maybe the deal of Jason Michaels, David Bell, and Gavin Floyd for Brad Penny or Derek Lowe and Duaner Sanchez is going through and Gillick needed the money - let's hope. I haven't been impressed with Penny for years, but my XBox baseball game seems to think he's got some of the best stuff in the game.

I didn't expect the Phils to trade Padilla until they signed another starter. The Phils are very pitching thin right now. Phils haven't considered Miguel Batista he is making nearly $5 Million a year and has poor command of his pitches.

Philliesopher, PTBNL usually means "not that good". You might get someone who could turn out to be a good name later on, but when has a PTBNL really ever been anything truly worthwhile?

One of the Rangers' front line players is probably out of the question. I'd say mid-range prospect is best the Phils will get.

I'm also a Phillies fan too - I grew up in Philly, so this isn't "an opposition fan coming in and making trouble". I'm on both sides of this one.

"but when has a PTBNL really ever been anything truly worthwhile?"

Only those "technical" PTBNL's like Gio Gonzalez, no?


"I haven't been impressed with Penny for years, but my XBox baseball game seems to think he's got some of the best stuff in the game."

Hahaha!


Anyway, if this is a cost-cutting move, boooooo. If they get a reliever, boooooo. If it's a good SP prospect... ok.

And if Bell goes to LA in a package involving Lowe, not bad.

So much for this former Philadelphian's Monday being brightened - here's a question that might brighten it - since the team may be flush with cash by next winter, which 3rd basemen will be free agents?

David Bell. Aaron Boone. Edgardo Alfonso. Pedro Feliz.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/121305dnspopadilla.260d414.html

Here's an article from the Dallas Morning News about it. Our Rangers beatwriter has this important piece to say:

>> The minor leaguer was to be finalized within the week. It will not be somebody currently on the Rangers' 40-man roster. <<

Here's the Rangers current 40 man roster:

http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/roster_40man.jsp?c_id=tex

at the very least, the "stand pat" moniker has been shown to be far from true.

i'm not convinced it's a good move, but padilla is eligible for arbitration (how much could his salary go up?) and if gillick does manage to get a good prospect, it could pay off. i think gillick realizes that short of doing a mets-style payroll explosion, he wasn't going to be able to get the roster's missing pieces through FA or trades this offseason because the pieces were simply not there. so he's trying to keep the team competitive for the time being while overhauling the farm system and cutting some of the more wrongheaded salary decisions. i give him a lot of respect for having the chutzpah to look down the road and try to build a successful franchise instead of mortgaging the future for an 88-win team.

so it could be Diamond or Danks? ha, j/k.

Have to admit that I don't understand this one - How can a team starving for pitching let Padilla go for the PTBNL? Especially since the $$$ pitchers are getting this off season are obscene, how will the PHILS replace Padilla? Ok, he wasn't Cy Young but we don't have anyone to take his spot, do we? It's still early so Pat G better have something good planned after this one! Why didn't the PHILS go for Matt Morris - I guess they figured he wouldn't hold up?

Eileen

I sort've agree ae, but I don't think he's done trading. Bell is creating interest because whoever doesn't get bill muellar may go for Bell. Abreu has value and I think he will accrue more the closer it gets to midseason next year.

But as they're arguing over at PhilliesPhan.com, why trade a pitcher for only a prospect when a similar pitcher pulled down significant value through free agency? Surely gillick could have traded padilla for something better than this if teams were prepared to lay down 11 mill a year for Burnett?

Or is this further proof that the market value in dollars of FA continues to be wildly divergent to their equivalent value in players?

This has to be part of a three way deal or I'm very disappointed. Unless Padilla's personal problems are as bad as we hear or worse, I can't see giving up such a live arm for a prospect. I'm sure Ranger fans are looking at that sub 4.00 era and hoping that a change of scenery is just what Padilla needs.

Update: Jayson Stark reported on Comcast Daily News Live that the deal is for prospects (plural) and that the return won't get too many people excited. He believes the Phillies did not feel he was worth the money he'd get in arbitration, which would have been in the neighborhood of $4 million.

Since I didn't mention it in the story above, Padilla has a 3.95 career ERA in seven seasons with Arizona and the Phils, including a 51-51 record, and about a 2/1 strikeout to walk ratio.

mlbtraderumors.com says it will be a "C" level prospect

padilla probably could use a change of scenery. ameriquest, however, is not it - 2nd most favorable in MLB for runs, 3rd for hits, 4th for HRs. not to mention the fact that he has to face the DH-bolstered lineups of the AL now. ERA over 5 is pretty likely.

Joe:
You said it won't be anyone on the 40 man roster. Tell us all you can about Matt Riley, the left-hander who came up with Baltimore. Very inconsistent record ... I thought scouts were high on him at one point. Baseball America sure was. They named him best prospect in the Orioles system in 1999 and 2000. He is someone I could see the Phillies targeting. They need southpaws, but his prospect days appear long gone.

Here was the list Joe posted on his Rangers site of non-40 prospects:

Oklahoma (AAA)
Ryan Bukvich
Matt Riley

Tulsa (AA)
Wil Rodriguez
Agustin Montero (was banned for steroids)
Ron Mahay (middle reliever)

With a deal like this, I think it's important for Gillick to keep the old John Schuerholz stategy in mind: Be sure to get young pitching in return. If they get Riley, be sure to get a young arm in addition to that.

Always get a pitcher.

Maybe one of the prospects is Taylor Teagarden a catcher who was drafted last year. As drafted players can't be traded for a year...

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Taylor%20Teagarden&pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=460003

Mahay isn't a prospect. He's been with our big club a few times the last few years. He's down there for not doing that well.

Bukvich was out for the year with an injury. Might be TJ, not sure.

Wil Rodriguez I don't know much about, and management was high on Montero a year ago, but that was our old GM. Not sure what the club feels about him now.

Teagarden is considered our catcher of the future, I'd be stunned if we gave him up.

Padilla is the classic example of million dollar arm and 10 cent brain. There is a term called 'addition by subtraction' and I think that's what Pat is doing here. I don't think Padilla is his 'type' of player.

I also am curious as to who the PTBNL will be. Rest assured, he's not done tuning up this roster yet, especially the pitching. I'm willing to give Mr. Gillick the benefit of doubt and see what he has up his sleeve for his next move.

Let's have a little more patience here, fellow Phil Phans.

I look at this move from 3 angles.

1) Phillies didn't think VP was worth $4 mil in arbitration and decided to free up the money. I find this hard to understand given how much $$ mediocre pitchers get these days, but that money could make the difference in getting a better player within a budget target.
2) Gillick saw someone in the Rangers' system that he thinks will be valuable going forward, more valubale than VP is to the Phillies. It might be a pitcher, catcher, whatever. I don't know the Rangers' system well enough to guess who he might have been targeting.
3) It's the first stage of a multi-team deal, or the first of several deals that he's putting together. Time will tell. If Gillick will be acquiring starting pitching from somewhere else and any of it is better than VP, he doesn't need VP.

But why would a team hurting for starting pitching deal away a potential winner like VP for a PTBNL?
Because VP will always be a 'potential' winner. He will always be just what he has always been: a tantalizing talent who seems just on the cusp of getting it together, but never does. And those players prevent teams from solving problems. As long as VP was around the Phillies could think he might be the answer and postpone finding a longterm solution. You cannot depend on players like VP and you can certainly not build winners around platyers that are question marks every single spring training. In that case you are better off cutting ties and getting what you can get, even if it's perceived as below market.

VP might end up as a CY winner with Texas. I wish him well. But it was never going to happen with the Phillies, and he was simply a distraction that prevented the team from getting someone to fill the role that he was supposed to be filling and never really did. He was given every opportunity.

He had his moments with the Phillies, but that's always been the problem: they were just moments. Good Luck VP.

Pinto doesn't like the deal, from the Phils' standpoint: "The Texas Rangers picked up Vincente Padilla from the Philadelphia Phillies today for a player to be determined. It's an interesting move by the new Rangers GM. Padilla isn't that good a pitcher, but he's also not as bad as his stats. Over the last two seasons, Padilla has a 4.98 ERA at home, 4.21 on the road. The big difference is home runs allowed, 28 at home vs. 10 on the road over that time. With Texas posting an ERA near five last season, a pitcher who keep his ERA at 4.50 or lower actually improves the team. It looks to me that the Rangers got a pitcher who can handle their ballpark and be pretty good on the road.

"This deal has the potential to be very good for Texas. It's almost the reverse of the Chan Ho Park signing. The Rangers paid through the nose for someone whose stats looked much better than reality due to the ball park. Here, they're giving up a minor leaguer for someone whose stats look worse than reality."

I don't like it much either. He's a basically league average starter (harder to find than it may sound) based on his adjusted ERA the last two years, a former all-Star, and still has a great arm. Sure, he's a head case, but he could win 15 games this year as easily as anybody. The Phils' rotation is 2 leasgue-average guys (Lieber, Lidle) who are about Padilla's equal, and Myers, who is a good #2 starter now, possibly soon to be a real # 1.

Gillick didn't get enough for Padilla.

I'm fairly sure this was simply a fatigue move on the Phils' part. They were tired of Vicente, and he was tired of them. Presumably Gillick shopped him exhaustively in Dallas last week, and had no takers. I agree that the return isn't likely to get us all too geeked up; whatever value the PTBNL/s have is more likely to accrue to Scranton or Reading than the big club anyway.

I would have held onto him, as Padilla still looks to me like a decent #4 who might yet become something much better. The problem with getting rid of those "million dollar arm, ten cent head" guys is that you never know when the head will appreciate dramatically. It sure happened for Curt Schilling, the man Vicente helped bring to Arizona. Dave Stewart too. Randy Johnson, for that matter. I don't know if Padilla has that kind of upside, but this feels like one we might look back on with rue.

You don't even know what he got yet.

You have to ask yourself why the Phillies couldn't get anything of immediate value for Padilla if he is such a high-upside pitcher? Why did it come down to the pitching-starved Rangers for a PTBNL? Why did no other team want to give up anything at all for him in such a pitching-poor environment?
Maybe because this is a guy that everyone keeps saying could apparently easily win 15 games a year, but never has and most baseball people really think never will.
Gillick probably correctly surmised that he could get a more productive contributor than Padilla for his $4 mil.
Let's see.

i don't think pinto understands that ameriquest is an even worse park for pitchers than CBP. expecting padilla to post a 4.5 ERA next year is wishful thinking, the same kind of wishful thinking we've all been doing for the last four years.

for the record, i think lieber and lidle notably better pitchers than padilla. over 162 games, consistency is a huge plus, and that's something that padilla doesn't ever look like he's going to have.

good god, i'd rather have vicente than sidney ponson. ack!

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5162600

From that Fox Sports article:
One of the players under consideration to be sent to Philadelphia is right-hander Ricardo Rodriguez, who was 2-3 with a 5.50 ERA in 12 games for Texas.

It's Rosenthal, who's batting 1.000 so far this off-season, so it's probably pretty reliable. Any scouting reports on this guy?

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5162600

Most everyone has good points, this is how i feel about trading Padilla: the goal of Pat Gillick, and so the Phillies, is to win the World Series. Whether Floyd or Madson or Player X is going to be a better starter than Padilla, i don't now. But i doubt anyone would really want Padilla starting a playoff or game. He is not trustworthy. I doubt the guys playing behind him trust him. So it makes sense to me. And i don't think Gillick is cutting costs just to save the Phillies money. He doesn't get anything out of that (does he?). With more money they can start signing THE RIGHT players. They won't have $9 million tied up in Matt Morris in 2008, they can re-sign Utley or Meyers or whomever.
One last thing...i would have liked to see Padilla tried as a reliever. Just, why not?
The other last thing...forgive me. It's late.

i only root for latin pitchers who light people on fire and do their best jason voorhees impersonations.

viva el ugie!!!

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